IISS Special (Combat) Rescue

[Reban]

so the scouts would be more like the cia. that analogy would bring just about everything into focus.

Possibly a bit more like how the US Coastguard comes under the Department of Homeland Security.


One definition of the tasks of a police force is: "to know where everyone is at any given time".

Scouts have a massive passive intelligence gathering capability in the form of detached scouts. The SSB act "as clandestine agents for Intelligence Branch".

So when a suspect needs arresting the Scout Service are likely to know where that person is and can send a team with the right skills to take that person into custody. Of course the above may equally apply to suspects or persons of interest outside the Imperium (so a bit CIA-like). Besides people, this may also apply to seizure and retrieval of things (like technology on an interdicted world).

Scouts "also have extensive law-enforcement powers among the general public. They may question, detain, or arrest suspects for violations of many Imperial laws. In particular, they hold the primary responsibility for enforcing the interdiction laws with regard to worlds which are under IISS jurisdiction."

Extensive law-enforcement powers may mean they can intervene in any crime against the Imperium they encounter, but in practice they probably stick to things they know about like breaking interdictions.

The other emphasis is on internal security and policing. The Scouts are a big organisation with lots of property, like ships and bases. So guarding those, checking out employees and keeping them safe are all tasks of the security branch.

Both the above are backed up from CT Scouts and GT First In. I'd assume one more big area for the Security Branch is investigating crimes that use the X-Boat network. That could be literally any crime, so I'd narrow it down, let the Imperial Treasury investigate financial crimes and currancy fraud, local customs can probably deal with transmission of offensive or illegal materials but things like treasonous materials or communications might first drop on to the desk of a SSB operative.

 

[rancke]

So no arrests, just some secret "wetwork" off the books.

Well, that and all the arrests that canon says they're authorized to do.

I find it a little strange that you'd readily accept the powers that are mere conjecture but not the ones that have evidence to support them.


Hans

 

[flykiller]

"also have extensive law-enforcement powers among the general public. They may question, detain, or arrest suspects for violations of many Imperial laws. In particular, they hold the primary responsibility for enforcing the interdiction laws with regard to worlds which are under IISS jurisdiction."

I casually assume without checking that this is backed up by ct scouts and gt first in, but it makes no sense. once you arrest someone (skipping past that whole use-of-force issue) you must protect, feed, house, and clothe your prisoner, and hand him over to a judicial authority. these actions occupy entire branches of government and require enormous funding. are scouts equipped to do this? maybe if they are some kind of judge dredd character, but otherwise no. and if they did in fact operate this way then they would not be called scouts, or be under the scout branch, they would be their own entity of local/imperial law enforcement more like the texas rangers or wilderness game wardens.

 

[atpollard]

Well, that and all the arrests that canon says they're authorized to do.

I find it a little strange that you'd readily accept the powers that are mere conjecture but not the ones that have evidence to support them.


Hans

Just pointing to a conclusion of the CIA analogy and the question of arresting a noble ... in fantasy (like Traveller or James Bond or the Borne series), the spies have a different way of dealing with someone who needs punishment but is beyond arrest.

My personal thoughts about the IISS in the Third Imperium are that they fall a whole lot closer to the US POST OFFICE or US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY ... they update maps and deliver junk mail ... important, I have no doubt, but hardly the stuff of adventure.
Imho, the IMOJ arrests people ... the IISS might investigate tampering with the Subsidized Mail delivery ... before turning it over to the IMOJ to arrest and prosecute.
It is one factor that makes me lean towards Proto-Traveller or Hard Times/Long Night over the Golden Age 3rd Imperium.

 

[mike wightman]

Quote from LBB6 :

Agents of the llSS Security Branch have great authority to arrest, detain, or question individuals suspected of violations of Imperial law, and can demand co-operation from local authorities as the need arises.

So the scout spook does the arresting then hands them over to the world authorities to process - probably a treaty agreement. If a scout spook says you have to lock someone up in an orbital prison you don't ask "why?" you say "how long for".

 

[rancke]

Just pointing to a conclusion of the CIA analogy and the question of arresting a noble ... in fantasy (like Traveller or James Bond or the Borne series), the spies have a different way of dealing with someone who needs punishment but is beyond arrest.

But this assumes that Imperial nobles are beyond arrest. Which is the very question under debate.

My personal thoughts about the IISS in the Third Imperium are that they fall a whole lot closer to the US POST OFFICE or US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY ... they update maps and deliver junk mail ... important, I have no doubt, but hardly the stuff of adventure.

But it is the stuff of setting background.

I don't know about the US GEOLOGICAL SURVEY, but the US POST OFFICE has it's own criminal investigators, doesn't it? And I believe the New York underground has its own cops. Lots of organizations have LEOs of their own without making the FBI redundant.

Imho, the IMOJ arrests people ... the IISS might investigate tampering with the Subsidized Mail delivery ... before turning it over to the IMOJ to arrest and prosecute.

The MoJ may deal with every kind of crime on the books, but its priorities would differ from those of the Scouts, so the Scouts have their own LEOs to deal with their priorities.

It is one factor that makes me lean towards Proto-Traveller or Hard Times/Long Night over the Golden Age 3rd Imperium.

Proto-Traveller is usually not better than later material. It's just much less well described. If you dislike one of those later developments, proto-Traveller doesn't actually provide you with something better; it just provides a blank that you can fill out for yourself. Which you can do anyway, by simply ignoring the bit you dislike.


Hans

 

[Reban]

I casually assume without checking that this is backed up by ct scouts and gt first in, but it makes no sense. once you arrest someone (skipping past that whole use-of-force issue) you must protect, feed, house, and clothe your prisoner, and hand him over to a judicial authority. these actions occupy entire branches of government and require enormous funding. are scouts equipped to do this? maybe if they are some kind of judge dredd character, but otherwise no. and if they did in fact operate this way then they would not be called scouts, or be under the scout branch, they would be their own entity of local/imperial law enforcement more like the texas rangers or wilderness game wardens.

The reference is GT: First In p.7 and I was casually requoting Whulorigan who made the very useful contribution of two relevant quotes in the 4th post in this thread. You can casually read it on page one of the thread.

Once you arrest someone you have no real responsibility for clothing, feeding and housing a prisoner. Yes you have a responsibility for his or her safety and welfare but your next duty is to produce that person before a competent authority for remand and/or charge.

In the Imperium its likely a person would be turned over to local law enforcement or in the case of an Imperial crime the likely route would be to place a prisoner in the custody of the Starport Portwarden for collection by MoJ Agents who bring him or her before an Imperial Court of Law (more important Starports probably have one of these on campus or nearby at a Noble's residence).

Scouts are still called scouts because scouting is their primary mission. If they come across crime in the course of their duties (especially crimes related to their areas of expertise) they have powers of arrest. Just like Coastguards are still called coastguards, customs officers are still customs officers, immigration officers are still immigration officers etc. etc.

 

[flykiller]

Scouts are still called scouts because scouting is their primary mission.

not if they're performing law enforcement. of course you as the referee may decree otherwise, but good luck gaming it in any coherent manner.

But this assumes that Imperial nobles are beyond arrest. Which is the very question under debate.

no it is not.

 

[rancke]

not if they're performing law enforcement.

Nonsens. The primary purpose of the Post Office is still delivering mail even though it has postal inspectors performing law enforcement.

No it is not.

Oh yes it is, unless you agree that Imperial nobles are not beyond arrest by Scouts if they violate the law, which I take it you don't. Because otherwise it certainly is in dispute, since that's what I claim.


Hans

 

[flykiller]

Nonsens ... Oh yes it is

at this point we can let the readers decide for themselves.

 

[samuelvss]

As I read it, the IISS's general law enforcement powers are simply to facilitate their own mandates, which include communications, gathering strategic intelligence, survey, and maintaining interdiction. A way to look at it is to analogize to the various federal law enforcement agencies. All have general powers of arrest, but each for a different purpose, from Park Police, to DEA, ICE, FBI, and Secret Service. If ICE observes a murder on a federal enclave, they will likely arrest rather than letting an otherwise unidentified suspect just leave; they will seek someone else to do the "hands on," if feasible.

However, inside the 10D limit, law enforcement jurisdiction is local. IMTU, Imperial officials would have the ability to enforce imperial laws (which deal with things like treason, slavery, and piracy) only thorough and in coordination with local officials, except in cases of hot pursuit, or when a local government is itself the target of such law enforcement. One can assume that the local powers would grant liberal access. Imperial officials would similarly "deputize" locals to do preemptive customs inspections: it's still legal to be interstellar commerce, but the locals may want to know where it is if it's illegal on the planet.

Usually, then, the IISS will just be dropping a dime on someone, and let all the other myriad law enforcement agencies do the cuffing. The most dangerous aspect of the IISS's job, IMTU, is being in the quiet corners where pirates like to hide. They maintain networks of sensors that are passive until prompted by encrypted signal, but in this very maintenance, they often enough spot their targets, and most try to lay low enough or jump soon enough. Often enough, over the years, they fail.

Thus the most important work the IISS does is provide the various navies timely intel for anti-piracy operations. Space is a big place, and while the navies will act on specific information, and do some patrolling, they cannot possibly patrol enough to catch everyone. The IISS therefore, well, scouts.

IISS will use naval or their own assets to interdict red systems, but the surveillance and conditions of the interdiction are always IISS monitored.

 

[Quint]

My own internal analogs for the various LEO is as follows:

MoJ = Interpol and the ICC, plus the FBI.

IISS = Homeland Security (so it gets, USPS, Park Police/Rangers, Border Patrol, TSA, ATF, & the DEA). In an only slightly darker version of the Imperium you can simply sum the IISS up as the old KGB. In general I tend to think that if the IISS wants to bring you in, they can generally find *something* to bring you in for.

Planetary or System LEO's = State & Local Police, Port Police, along with Fish & Game, etc.

Unresolved, in the OTU is if the Imperial Courts are operated under an adversarial or an inquisitorial system. I tend to think inquisitorial which is why I see an FBI analog in the MoJ.

D.

 

[Quint]

...once you arrest someone (skipping past that whole use-of-force issue) you must protect, feed, house, and clothe your prisoner, and hand him over to a judicial authority. these actions occupy entire branches of government and require enormous funding. are scouts equipped to do this?...

Sure they are.

It's called a low berth.

;-)

D.

 

[flykiller]

the Imperial Courts are operated under an adversarial or an inquisitorial system.

inquisitorial. the primary function of a judiciary in a nobility system is the protection of the nobility. americans may object that imperial citizens have rights etc, but the imperium is not america in any way shape or form. it's not called the imperium, and it's not ruled by an emperor, and it's not run by nobles, for nothing. god may be in heaven and the king may be far way, but when they have an interest in events then the hammer comes out.

 

[rancke]

Sure they are.

It's called a low berth.

Unless it's against Imperial law (Imperial Editct 589 ) to place anyone in low berth against their will.

Such a rule is justifiable (LBs are dangerous) and useful for roleplaying purposes (an active prisoner having more plot potential than a popsicle).

Note: I'm not claiming that this is canonical. Merely that it is canon-compatible.


Hans

 

[rancke]

inquisitorial. the primary function of a judiciary in a nobility system is the protection of the nobility. americans may object that imperial citizens have rights etc, but the imperium is not america in any way shape or form. it's not called the imperium, and it's not ruled by an emperor, and it's not run by nobles, for nothing. god may be in heaven and the king may be far way, but when they have an interest in events then the hammer comes out.

The Imperium is not America or The United Nations or the Terran Confederation or the Rule of Man or the Sylean Condefederation. But it is the cultural heir to all of these and several rights of Imperial subjects are canonical. So it's quite possible that there is a list of rights (or as I've named it, The List of Obligations) inherited from the Sylean Federation that sets forth the rights the Imperium is committed to respect.


Hans

 

[flykiller]

the rights the Imperium is committed to respect.

oh sure, they'll respect them all the live-long day happily and enthusiastically. so long as the imperium itself is, and it's owners are, respected first.

think of it as imperial rome or byzantium.

 

[mike wightman]

The Traveller Adventure has many instances where imperial citizen 'rights' are ignored due to local law/custom.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Interesting, although I did try to put forth the idea of scouts as having military operative powers when in territories (or in times of war) that had loosely defined jurisdiction.

I'm not really sure where the law enforcement aspect arose. I was thinking more of a SEALs / Delta Force / USAF Special Operations, extraction / anti-terrorist unit, but perhaps more focused on extracting personnel in very alien territories.

 

[Condottiere]

There is the Imperial Marshal Service, they always get their man.