If Information Wants to be Free...

[jawillroy]

It's got some harsh jailers in most Traveller Universes, as far as I can tell.

Most Traveller Universes are based on interstellar societies that have been up and running for anywhere from hundreds to thousands of years.

Many worlds are of interstellar-level tech: namely, they can make and maintain jump drives.

Many more worlds, some of notionally the same tech level, don't have that capability. (I'm deliberately ignoring Trillion Credit Squadron's statement on the issue, over here.)

The reason, of course, that some worlds have the jump drive and others do not is that the dice said so. HOWEVER, I'm curious about your various rationalizations for this.

Is "Jump" privileged knowledge in the Traveller universe? Does the Imperium/what have you actively prevent worlds from getting the technology, even within its notional borders? Is it a materials problem... are the particular bits of handwavium that make the drives work so rare? Do some worlds just not care about leaving their systems?

What do you think?

 

[kafka47]

The ability make something does not always connect with use. Also, there is a good article on Jumpspace that Marc did in JTAS...that goes into a little bit why some civilizations plateau and others make the Jump (pardon the pun).

[FONT=arial,helvetica] Many worlds are of interstellar-level tech: namely, they can make and maintain jump drives..[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]. Is "Jump" privileged knowledge in the Traveller universe? Does the Imperium/what have you actively prevent worlds from getting the technology, even within its notional borders? Is it a materials problem... are the particular bits of handwavium that make the drives work so rare? Do some worlds just not care about leaving their systems?[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica] [/FONT]

Again, it is historical...the Vilani plutocracy having learnt their lesson in the Consolidation Wars kept a tight lid on Jump Technology and also the technological level of all worlds Pax Vilanica. The Second Imperium was fast and liberal which accelerated its downfall (mainly by letting the Cats & Dogs have more tech then they should have). The Third Imperium, had the laissez faire attitude (who could control those Pocket Empires from maintaining Jump tech) but at the same time kept the best for its military. So while many worlds could use Jump-1 that still limited their expansion.

I view Jump tech much as one can view globalized air travel today... It is not a luxury for most First World Country Citizens...and in fact, they take it for granted...but as you go elsewhere in the world...fewer and fewer people have access to the global network till you get to a point where it is no longer part of their lives. Similarly, it is for Jump...some Worlds are quite content with exploiting the resources of their own Solar System and may be only marginally trading with the rest of the Imperium whereas others are venerable dynamos.

Create a small history of the world based upon your reading of the UWP (remember these stay as constants for long periods of time) and figure it out.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Some worlds don't need them, some don't want them, some don't have the resources, some find it cheaper/easier to buy from elsewhere. Just like with a lot of RW tech.

 

[jatay3]

One thing often missed in sci fi is that each world is a whole planet-interested primarily in it's local affairs. From what I have gathered, only certain classes of society really think in an intersteller fashion in TTU.

A planet that is primarily agricultural might be more interested in techniques for genetically enhanced Kudebeck fodder. A Balkanized world might be more interested in ground based military technology. A whole planet has lots of possible options for development and intersteller travel is only one of them. Perhaps the intersteller part is handled by a single culture or caste on the planet? Perhaps there was a treaty with offworlders allowing them to rent wasteland as a Starport? But I never got the impression that there were many worlds that "don't have" jump drive in the sense that they couldn't build it if they wanted to. Most worlds were settled by starfaring cultures. But many of them, once they settled, just settled. Others were cut off by the Long Night. And there are a number of cultures newly discovered. But Humans, Aslan, and Vargr in the Imperial orbit(odder creatures are a separate issue) will usually at least know that there are people from the stars simply because they have their own history, they have occasional visitors, and so on. Their decision to produce or not to produce jump drive reflects local factors.

Far Trader explained much of this by pointing out that an intersteller economy would encourage planets to specialize. In other words the fact that only a few planets build jump drives means no more then the fact that only a few cities on Earth build supertankers.

 

[sabredog]

As far as CT goes (and it may be the same in the others, I don't know) one major restriction is that only Type A Starports can build jump-capable ships. And B Starports or better are required for maintenance.

In addition, A ports have refined fuel and B- have unrefined.

So those two items alone will restrict a lot of places from building and maintaining jumpships. Likewise they will guide the flow of materials and personnel in that those two will gravitate towards the places the main liners will travel regularly.

IMTU, again I dunno about the OTU, lanthanum may not be rare but it isn't common in large enough quantities to ensure that every world can build it's own ships even if they have the TL and starport requirements met. It is located in large quantities in a couple of areas that are of strategic importance to the Empire and most of the supplies originate there and are farmed out to the worlds closest to them. As a result, the farther you are from one of the sources, the less likely you are to be able to build and maintain starships. You can buy them, of course, but they are expensive beasts to feed and care for and most worlds along the frontiers tend to rely on the long liner companies and local adventurers for shipping.

 

[jatay3]

As far as CT goes (and it may be the same in the others, I don't know) one major restriction is that only Type A Starports can build jump-capable ships. And B Starports or better are required for maintenance.

In addition, A ports have refined fuel and B- have unrefined.

So those two items alone will restrict a lot of places from building and maintaining jumpships. Likewise they will guide the flow of materials and personnel in that those two will gravitate towards the places the main liners will travel regularly.

IMTU, again I dunno about the OTU, lanthanum may not be rare but it isn't common in large enough quantities to ensure that every world can build it's own ships even if they have the TL and starport requirements met. It is located in large quantities in a couple of areas that are of strategic importance to the Empire and most of the supplies originate there and are farmed out to the worlds closest to them. As a result, the farther you are from one of the sources, the less likely you are to be able to build and maintain starships. You can buy them, of course, but they are expensive beasts to feed and care for and most worlds along the frontiers tend to rely on the long liner companies and local adventurers for shipping.

That is another point. There is no real reason why every high TL world has to build starships.

 

[JustinInOz]

In addition, A ports have refined fuel and B- have unrefined.

I know that is what the books say, but that is something that has always stuck in my craw. It does not make any sense.

It does not take much for a ship to have a fuel purification plant. Such a plant (or a non ship based version) could easily be set up at a star base that had access to water, methane, ammonia and whatever else has hydrogen.

You then have a money spinner for whoever wants to set up a business at the port. Merchants get more cargo space, save time, reduce risk of miss jump and you make money on the marginal value of the three. Who would not want to get into that business?

Am I missing something here? If I am, help me out. Laissez faire economics tells me one thing and those little black books say something else entirely.

 

[robject]

It does not take much for a ship to have a fuel purification plant. Such a plant (or a non ship based version) could easily be set up at a star base that had access to water, methane, ammonia and whatever else has hydrogen.

I'm sure there are purification plants on worlds with 'B' starports. Perhaps its a commercial/volume/reliability thing?

 

[jawillroy]

YLaissez faire economics tells me one thing and those little black books say something else entirely.

Once High Guard shows us how cheap fuel purification is, yeah, it's silly for it to be so rare (unless you consider that C-D-E ports are so regularly raided by the teeming pirates that they can't bother investing even that.) IMTU, Which ignores HG and leaves fuel purification in the realm of gummint ships, I postulate that the process of refinement is a much more complicated and expensive process than HG reveals.

The other explanation is that the Imperium described by the OTU (fixed passage and cargo rates, fixed fuel prices, dah dee dah dee dah) has *nothing* to do with Laissez faire economics...

 

[jawillroy]

I'm sure there are purification plants on worlds with 'B' starports. Perhaps its a commercial/volume/reliability thing?

A&B, but not C. D shalt not have purifiers, no either shall E. X is Right Out...

 

[rancke]

In addition, A ports have refined fuel and B- have unrefined.

I know that is what the books say, but that is something that has always stuck in my craw. It does not make any sense.

And it's not what the books say. The only difference between Class A and Class B starport[*] is that the yards associated with Class A builds starships (and, presumably, spaceboats) while those associated with Class B only builds spaceboats. Which sticks in my craw for various reasons.

[*] Unless you count the different rolls for determining the presence of bases, which I don't.​

I've previously suggested that the definitions be changed to make the presence or absence of a yard the difference between Class A and Class B starports. What sort of craft the yard is capable of building is adequately determined by the local technology (with the referee/writer having the option of assuming imports of higher TL components).

Also, note that a Class C starport may have refined fuel available. If it doesn't also have the other facilities that define a Class B starport, it's not a class B starport (Technically, it could also have, say, annual maintenance available but no refined fuel, but as you said, a fuel refinery is so cheap that it really doesn't make much sense not to have one, unless there is a real dearth of potential customers).


Hans

 

[rancke]

A&B, but not C. D shalt not have purifiers, no either shall E. X is Right Out...

As I interpret it, a starport with refined fuel available but no repair facilities would be a Class D. You need reasonable repair facilities to qualify for a Class C rating.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I'm sure there are purification plants on worlds with 'B' starports.

There is. By definition.

Perhaps its a commercial/volume/reliability thing?

I've used the "Facilities are available, but not guaranteed to be available in a timely manner" to explain Class D ratings for starports on worlds with billions of inhabitants that would logically have a lot of traffic. It's one of those explanations that works a lot better for a temporary situation than when UWPs show the situation unchanged for decades. Like Entrope's starport that got destroyed in 1084 and still hadn't been rebuilt in 1117...

Also, the explanation gets less and less plausible the more times you use it.


Hans

 

[Lategaming]

It's got some harsh jailers in most Traveller Universes, as far as I can tell.
...
Is "Jump" privileged knowledge in the Traveller universe? Does the Imperium/what have you actively prevent worlds from getting the technology, even within its notional borders? Is it a materials problem... are the particular bits of handwavium that make the drives work so rare? Do some worlds just not care about leaving their systems?

What do you think?

"On the one hand information wants to be expensive, because it's so valuable. The right information in the right place just changes your life. On the other hand, information wants to be free, because the cost of getting it out is getting lower and lower all the time. So you have these two fighting against each other."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Brand

Jump tech in Traveller is like WMDs in old early 21t Century Earth. Look what those primitives did to other nations on their planet who *may* have had WMDs.

 

[Agemegos]

Some worlds don't need them, some don't want them, some don't have the resources, some find it cheaper/easier to buy from elsewhere. Just like with a lot of RW tech.

(Emphasis added).

I see it as a matter of industrialisation. All the worlds have the information content of technology, but no all have the industrial capacity. If they lack industrial capacity it can be because they lack the trained workers (especially engineers), efficient means of allocating resources among rival uses (free market of high-tech alternative), and legal systems that quickly and cheaply enforce contracts (or other effective means or organising supplies of inputs to their factories), or because they have burdensome regulations, high taxes, corrupt officials exacting bribes etc. etc., or because they have been ravaged and disorganised by war or banditry. Furthermore, a world economy cannot specialise beyond its population unless it is tightly hooked into interstellar trade in components and assemblies, nor beyond the extent allowed by its local markets (population) unless it can import and export consumer products on vast scale and cheaply.

A shipyard presumably has a minimum efficient scale, and one large yard, in a system where components and assemblies are available, makes ships cheaper than could be managed in 36 small shipyards, one in every system. This would mean that the interstellar economy of the third Imperium builds ships in only some systems for the same reason that the international economy of the high Victorian period built ships in Glasgow and Belfast but not in Southampton or London, in Newcastle but not Melbourne or Sydney, etc. That is, not because shipbuilding wasn't understood in Sydney, but because of economies of scale and patterns of trade.

It's similar with other industries that are economical only at a scale that is significant compared with demand in the whole economy. Microcircuits are used everywhere (in computers and mobile phone systems), but they are only manufactured in a few dozen cities around the world. Not because the understanding of how to make them is found only there, but because the economies of scale dictate that there be only a few dozen silicon fab plants in an economy this size. Most cities find it cheaper and easier to buy computers and mobile phones from elsewhere than to build their own silicon fab plant for the few chips they consume locally. You would expect to find things similar in the Traveller universe: some planets don't have shipbuilding facilities because they are as badly run as Zimbabwe, as war-torn as Congo, or have only the workforce and extent-of-markets of Monaco, but others would find it better economics to specialise in something different, export it, and buy ships cheaply from elsewhere.

Far Trader explained much of this by pointing out that an intersteller economy would encourage planets to specialize. In other words the fact that only a few planets build jump drives means no more then the fact that only a few cities on Earth build supertankers.

Exactly so.

 

[Seriayne]

Interesting disc.

Kinda curious as to elements of this way out in the boonies - There are quite a few interstellar states that lack type A starports - In some of these, especially smaller states such the Trojan Reach, they're tiny, and obviously using extremely old starships that are as likely to misjump as not.

Others are relatively close to large interstellar states, and can feasibly be buying and maintaining their ships across the borders - or are small enough that their culture, if not empire, can be -barely- maintained by slower than light travel.

There's a bunch though, at least on Travellermap (I know, a lot of them aren't 'official'), that are fairly isolated, and in some cases encompass dozens of star systems - and no type A starport for the entire area, that make me wonder.

One solution is that the starport listed is the 'commercial' capability only - Forex, if a type X starport, interdicted system has an active Naval blockade and support facilities (up to C or even B capability) - the mainworld may still get listed on the map as having an X. Using that same reasoning, only those interstellar polities Navy might have one or two type A starports, held away and apart from the main-world's.

Maybe all interstellar trade has to be done via non-jump capable cargo boats that are ferried via a military run/subsidized jump-transport.

 

[far-trader]

...somewhere, the where of escapes me at the moment, it's stated that no matter what the listed starport is the local government can produce (and support) starships and/or spacecraft up to it's TL.

So a world listed as TLB and Starport E can still field starships of up to Jump 2 capability for it's local forces.

This means the listed starport is the interstellar port for trade, travel, and other commercial enterprises. Traveller's would be well advised to note this when pondering plundering that backwater Starport E world thinking they have no worries about the locals giving chase as they leave in their old Free Trader :devil:

 

[rancke]

Kinda curious as to elements of this way out in the boonies - There are quite a few interstellar states that lack type A starports - In some of these, especially smaller states such the Trojan Reach, they're tiny, and obviously using extremely old starships that are as likely to misjump as not.

One of the problems with official Traveller UWPs is that they're unvetted. I believe it's an article of faith with some that there's always an explanation, even if they can't come up with one right away. Personally, I think these people are wrong. Ramdom generation is a good servant but a terrible master, and plopping down randomly generated UWPs without even checking if they make sense or examining how neighboring worlds affect each other is a big mistake. IMO a set of unvetted UWPs is an unfinished product.

However, in the case of starport classes, there is often a useful consideration: What you suggested is actually the case. Starport class shows what facilities that are available to civilian shipping, presumably in a timely manner. There's a rule in HG that specifically allows any planetary government to build national ships regardless of the starport class (given the requisite tech level, that is). So a Class D starport could be one with full facilities where the local merchant lords refuse to service foreign ships.

Others are relatively close to large interstellar states, and can feasibly be buying and maintaining their ships across the borders - or are small enough that their culture, if not empire, can be -barely- maintained by slower than light travel.

Always assuming they're not on hostile terms with said neighbors.


Hans

 

[Agemegos]

There's a bunch though, at least on Travellermap (I know, a lot of them aren't 'official'), that are fairly isolated, and in some cases encompass dozens of star systems - and no type A starport for the entire area, that make me wonder.

I believe that that content was randomly generated, and really there is nothing to wonder about beyond that. Rationalise it if you can come up with a rationalisation that makes for good gaming. Otherwise change it as Rancke2 advises.

 

[aramis]

...somewhere, the where of escapes me at the moment, it's stated that no matter what the listed starport is the local government can produce (and support) starships and/or spacecraft up to it's TL.

So a world listed as TLB and Starport E can still field starships of up to Jump 2 capability for it's local forces.

This means the listed starport is the interstellar port for trade, travel, and other commercial enterprises. Traveller's would be well advised to note this when pondering plundering that backwater Starport E world thinking they have no worries about the locals giving chase as they leave in their old Free Trader :devil:

It's not in TCS; TCS is explicit that, in the Campaign rules, yes, indeed, you need a B port to build non-starships, and an A to build starships; no explicit restriction nor enabling is placed on small craft.


Keep in mind, Bk2 defines the three terms thusly (Bk2 p.12):

Definitions: A vessel is any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle. A ship is any vessel of 100 tons or more. A starship is a ship which has jump drives and can travel on interstellar voyages. A non-starship is a ship without jump drives. A small craft is any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of jump.​

TCS, p.32, Initial Fleets

There are no limits other than tech level and budget, although starships may be built only at A starports, non-starships only at A or B starports, and planetoid ships only in systems where planetoids are available. Pilots are effectively unlimited, given populations and revenues such as they are in any campaign game.​

TCS p34 restricts retrofits to B ports, and Jump Retrofits to A ports, as well.