The UPP doesn't really allow for negative numbers, though I guess you could put a minus in amongst the numbers. I'd leave it up to the gamemaster to flesh out. Maybe it's a Mars with a wee bit of an ice-cap, or maybe what little there is is all underground and needs prospecting, or maybe it's utterly barren - any of those would be interesting. Atmosphere 0 doesn't necessarily mean it's without atmosphere either - it could all be precipitated out as ice and snow on some iceball in the outer region of the system.
Hydrographic Percentage of a Planet
- Thread starter punga
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The UPP doesn't really allow for negative numbers, though I guess you could put a minus in amongst the numbers. I'd leave it up to the gamemaster to flesh out. Maybe it's a Mars with a wee bit of an ice-cap, or maybe what little there is is all underground and needs prospecting, or maybe it's utterly barren - any of those would be interesting. Atmosphere 0 doesn't necessarily mean it's without atmosphere either - it could all be precipitated out as ice and snow on some iceball in the outer region of the system.
What if a negative value meant that it is normally 0% (i.e. frozen out, etc.), but that at certain times of the year (i.e "summer" or the perihelion of an eccentric orbit) the world received enough heat to (briefly) create an atmosphere or sea equal to the absolute value of the negative atmosphere/hydrographic value?
negative law level - we PAY you to shoot people!
negative government - the ultimate form of libertarianism: you can do anything until it interferes with someone else
I've always set anything < 0 to be 0 and never thought about negative values. Figured 0 was the floor and 15 the ceiling (aka max) in keeping with the pseudo-hexadecimal thing (sorry - when I got into Traveller Iwas in college and computer science, and hexadecimal was used a lot back then so Traveller was a natural fit for me
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negative government - the ultimate form of libertarianism: you can do anything until it interferes with someone else
I've always set anything < 0 to be 0 and never thought about negative values. Figured 0 was the floor and 15 the ceiling (aka max) in keeping with the pseudo-hexadecimal thing (sorry - when I got into Traveller Iwas in college and computer science, and hexadecimal was used a lot back then so Traveller was a natural fit for me
)Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In terms of actual volume to planet size, you could have vast underground oceans, and nothing on the surface.
Probably would require footnotes after the descriptive entry.
Probably would require footnotes after the descriptive entry.
That's what I have done in some instances of world building to explain a large population on a desert world. That and I may institute a survey index indicating just how much actual surveying was done, ranging from "we put a satellite in orbit for a couple of hours" to "we spent months there with several camps and interviewed locals"
Well, frozen water is still water. Worlds with vacuum atmosphere can have hydro ratings above 0; those are ice caps. A world with ephemeral water resulting from seasonal changes would still have the same hydro percentage year round - its state just changes.
Problem is there's no consensus about what a negative number would mean, which means it still ends up being up to the gamemaster, which renders it ineffective as a means of communicating information. If we want an x-factor entry for weird water situations, we can put in an X and save a space.
chalimacos
SOC-4
I've been creating sectors with the old (1985) Apple II programs Sector Gen and Sect Gen 2.1 from GDW (signed by Mr. Miller) and the percentage of Ice Capped worlds that it generates is around 3.40%. This is not possible using the formula 2D-7+atmosphere (results in 1%). So back then they might be using the formula from pg. 85 in The Traveller Book (1982) checklist:
"Planetary hydrographics: 2D-7 +size. If planetary size is 0 or 1, then hydrographics must be 0; if atmosphere is 0, 1, or A+, then apply a DM of -4."
I know this is addressed the errata, but it is curious that software from GDW outputs this numbers.
"Planetary hydrographics: 2D-7 +size. If planetary size is 0 or 1, then hydrographics must be 0; if atmosphere is 0, 1, or A+, then apply a DM of -4."
I know this is addressed the errata, but it is curious that software from GDW outputs this numbers.
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chalimacos
SOC-4
I researched this a little more:
A) Sources for the formula: 2D-7+size (3.75% of Ice-capped worlds)
1977 LBB: Text and Checklist
1981 LBB: Checklist
1982 The Traveller Book: Checklist
1983 Book 6 - Scouts
1985 Sector Gen and Sect.Gen 2.1 by GDW (software)
1986 Challenge Magazine 26 Article by Marc W. Miller (Applesoft Basic program printed)
B) Sources for the formula: 2D-7+atmosphere (0.70% of Ice-capped worlds)
1981 LBB Text
1982 The Traveller Book: Text
I am inclined to think that, contrary to accepted opinion, for Classic Traveller formula A is the one that was widely used and B would be the errata.
PS. I generated 20 sectors for this research.
A) Sources for the formula: 2D-7+size (3.75% of Ice-capped worlds)
1977 LBB: Text and Checklist
1981 LBB: Checklist
1982 The Traveller Book: Checklist
1983 Book 6 - Scouts
1985 Sector Gen and Sect.Gen 2.1 by GDW (software)
1986 Challenge Magazine 26 Article by Marc W. Miller (Applesoft Basic program printed)
B) Sources for the formula: 2D-7+atmosphere (0.70% of Ice-capped worlds)
1981 LBB Text
1982 The Traveller Book: Text
I am inclined to think that, contrary to accepted opinion, for Classic Traveller formula A is the one that was widely used and B would be the errata.
PS. I generated 20 sectors for this research.
Enoki
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Chaos? Anarchy? A planet that is completely lawless and occupied by say something like gangs and war lords who constantly fight among themselves. There's no restriction on weapons because there's nobody to enforce some law if there were any law. That'd be my take on that. The more negative, the move violent and dangerous things are.
This might be, IMHO, government 0 or feudalism (I guess 3, but may vary) as it was in parts or Europe or Asia...
Again IMHO, this would be LL 0. Negative ones would be where those "values" are encouraged and expected.
ShawnDriscoll
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My world generator allows you to pick size or atmosphere when calculating hydrographic. Been using it for the last 200,000+ worldgens.
Enoki
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The difference when it's negative might be that instead of feudal or no government alone, there is perpetual violence among the groups. That is , there is always some sort of war going on and if you show up somebody's likely to go to war with you too. The danger in a negative setting is much higher.
With law level, not only are there no restrictions on possession, but possession is strongly encouraged by the setting itself. That is, you better damn well be armed or you are going to die.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
This has always been ambiguous. Does the hydrographics rating mean water/fluids in any state? Or only in liquid state? So, for example, should Europa have a hydrographics rating of "0" (there is no standing water) or "A" (it is fundamentally a water world that is completely covered in permanent super-thick ice)? I've never been particularly clear on that one.
Given that "Ice Capped" is hydrographics and vacuum or trace atmospheres... that's in Bk3-81, but not in bk3-77.
If you started with CT-77, it's somewhat ambiguous; in CT-81, it's clear that it is ice and/or ocean.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
That means you can't ever get a Europa because it's impossible to roll. It's got a zero (or maybe a 1) atmosphere, but should be an A hydrographics. It is fundamentally a frozen water world. But you can't roll it.
Plus, it isn't "ice-capped". It's a full "ice world".
Or Pluto is even better. I don't know what it's "water coverage" is, but it is better than 0 or 1. And, for all intents and purposes, water/ice on Pluto is really just a kind of rock. It isn't "water" like we think of it. It is always frozen and behaves like rock.
So ... yeah.
Plus, it isn't "ice-capped". It's a full "ice world".
Or Pluto is even better. I don't know what it's "water coverage" is, but it is better than 0 or 1. And, for all intents and purposes, water/ice on Pluto is really just a kind of rock. It isn't "water" like we think of it. It is always frozen and behaves like rock.
So ... yeah.
I’ve always read it that Hydrographics refers to liquid state. So Europa would be Hydrographics 0, with a note that it is actually permanent super-thick ice.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. Water, or any liquid?
2. Numbers describe governance type, so zero means none; there's no latitude for negative numbers in the code, so you just have to climb up the scale to describe something more esoteric.
2. Numbers describe governance type, so zero means none; there's no latitude for negative numbers in the code, so you just have to climb up the scale to describe something more esoteric.
It's specifically liquid surface water in GURPS Traveller, but I believe undefined in other editions.
1. Any liquid, in order to service the Fluid World trade code. I’m not versed in chemistry at all but it’s not very hard to do a little internet research and find out if the world is carrying water or some other fluid, or must be frozen or not.
2. I agree. A bit of an aside, IMTU for world gen Size runs up to 30, from terrestrials to Super Earths to Gas Dwarfs to Gas Giants. Thus, Atmosphere always runs quite high, based mostly on pressure - up to Standard, Dense, Very Dense and Massive, each with Tainted, Exotic, Corrosive and Insidious classifications. I’ve never understood why Atmo was capped at F. Regarding Hydrographics, I have a little rule for the possibility of some land masses on worlds of Size C+ but eventually the larger worlds all become water/fluid worlds.
It’s fun crunch and the weird UWPs feel good on the eyes. YMMV.
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