How To Cross A Rift...

[phil644441]

A return to fossil fuels? No.

I remember reading a theory somewhere, sometime, from a science fiction writer (Larry Niven?) that, in the long term, the big surplus produced by civilisation is HEAT - and this is a truly unwanted by-product. Now, excess heat (energy) ought to be easy to convert into a form of energy usable by starships (stored in nano-batteries, maybe?) so that the starships run on something there is certainly too much of and something of which there is an endless supply as long as civilisation exists (and if civilisation doesn't exist, starships don't need fuel!).

If we wanted a longer discussion on this we should probably start a new thread.....

AK

 

[PBI]

The issue really depends on who is doing the crossing and why.

If the crossing of a large enough rift is being undertaken for military reasons, the solution is simple. Build deep space bases and set up a regular supply run of fuel, etc to them using tankers and/or bulk transports. High-jump ships pop in, gas up, and continue on their merry way until they get out of the rift. It's expensive, and time-consuming, but sometimes you just don't have a choice.

If the people doing the crossing are non-gov't types, well, they won't. It just doesn't make economic sense to try and get across a rift. Much better to go around. IFF there is no way around, well, you will see commercial activity crossing the rift once enough shiny new resources have been discovered on the other side.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
I've got to ask - why Wypoc???

One, Location. It's J2 from Regina, on a mini-main. Esentially, in the middle of things, but yet insignificant.

Two: it's got an insidious atmosphere, and a population. Makes them probably practical people. Especially since it defeats suits in 8 hours...

Three: It's one of the first worlds I detailed out IMTU. And I randomly rolled multi-ton flying pouncers... There be Dragons on Wypoc. And (again by random luck) pistol equipped herbivores... which made me think of Thundarr's pet.

Four: it's chock full of adventure possibilities.

five: my players tke great delight in surviving a dragon hunt.



But it has little to do with crossing rifts.... unless one means corssing Rifts(TM) into Traveller...

 

[BetterThanLife]

Actually most systems that have gas giants present or water present and laws prohibiting civilians from using them still have them marked on the map.
From the printed material, unrestricted wilderness refueling where the system is sufficeintly technologically advanced to have a space capability and a better than Class E starport generally restrict or prohibit wilderness refueling.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Alternatively those worlds you mentioned have laws against civilians refueling anywhere but the starport, hence the lack of water and gas giant symbol on the travel chart.
The fact that they all have Naval bases could be explained that the military restricts civillian refueling.
Plus, considering the cost of fuel processing plants, restricting the buying of fuel to the starport only is a licence for the fuel companies to print money

 

[Spinward Scout]

Well, there are some damn great answers in here. What I think I was looking for, was a way to not just use one ship, but set up a series of ships and stations/fuel outposts, so that you can indefinitely run a rift using Jump-1 ships (i.e. not having to go around using Corridor sector). I would think that a 1000+ year old government would find it cheaper in the long run to build something like this. 15-30 parsecs crossed is a whole lot cheaper in fuel than a 60-90+ parsec journey, I would think. Just one Fueling Station Run across the rift in Reft sector would cut down on a lot of fuel burned, and Vargr raids most likely. Nobody ever said those Imperials were smart. But how long would something like this take to set up? If you are only covering maybe 30 parsecs, you could conceivably have something up and running within a year. Now if you were a private company, and partnered with the military so they could get their fuel at a discount or such, maybe in return for "protection"... How would you go about this?

Scout

 

[PBI]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Well, there are some damn great answers in here. What I think I was looking for, was a way to not just use one ship, but set up a series of ships and stations/fuel outposts, so that you can indefinitely run a rift using Jump-1 ships (i.e. not having to go around using Corridor sector). I would think that a 1000+ year old government would find it cheaper in the long run to build something like this. 15-30 parsecs crossed is a whole lot cheaper in fuel than a 60-90+ parsec journey, I would think. Just one Fueling Station Run across the rift in Reft sector would cut down on a lot of fuel burned, and Vargr raids most likely. Nobody ever said those Imperials were smart. But how long would something like this take to set up? If you are only covering maybe 30 parsecs, you could conceivably have something up and running within a year. Now if you were a private company, and partnered with the military so they could get their fuel at a discount or such, maybe in return for "protection"... How would you go about this?

Scout

You've just answered yourself in terms of how you would go about it

Put deep space bases in place that are essentially some crew pods, some cargo pods (spare parts for repair and the like) and a fuel park of unpowered pods full of H2. The trick comes in the fact that these bases would be totally dependant on tankers for resupply, both of their own power plants and to restock the fuel park. The shorter the route, the easier it is, but once you start getting into the 2-3 jump range from either end, things can get a might interesting.

It might, indeed, be possible to make such a route commercially viable when looked at from the perspective of individual ships and companies, but I'm not so certain that would hold true when the costs of operating all those tankers and transports required to keep the bases alive is factored in.

I still maintain that such a route would only make sense if the strategic need was great and pressing and I couldn't see the expense being worth it to set up a route of less than J3, but, everything depends on perspective. If such a route is deemed vital to the interests of a polity, it'll get built

As a slight FWIW, a friend and I are playing a TCS/FFW game in a home-generated universe (each of us controlling about a sector) and my friend has a network of bases set up to get across a rift. He's set up his network at J4. In order to keep the network supplied (fuel for the fuel parks is the greatest concern), he uses 1,000,000 J6 girders overloaded to J4 to deliver fuel, replacement crew and parts, and to set up new bases and/or act as tugs. He uses his J6 girders as multi-mission fleet support ships (troop transports, tenders, etc) and doesn't have a lot of them to use with the fleet because the rift network takes up something like 75% of the girder force.

The point is, it can be done, but it's a logistical headache and can be a significant resource drain that has to be seriously considered and re-considered before implementing.

 

[Simone]

use "hulls" constructed from ice ball asteroids, the drives, bridge, life support (no maneuver) fit in some standardized "pod", a pod contains the drives, crew cabins, etc (a pepsi-can type arrangement, with a big ball of ice stuck on it)

The pod gets carried back as cargo, stackable, modular, dull.

I can visualise a big rubber bag sort of deal, melt the H20 to craft the "hulls", squirt H20 in bag, allow to freeze in a sphere (efficient form)

Build your "craft" in the Oort cloud if available, else stage them up to most forward J point, well beyond the ice point in the jumpoff star system, the last one with mucho agua.

If I remember correctly, rough numbers and CT, YMMV, let's use a 1000 dton "hull" (efficient!)

J4 drive requires J 'V' =105 dtons 105
minimum power plant E = 16 dtons 16
fuel to jump it 4 parsecs (ice ball!) 400
hull (asteroid, ice, payload, I cheat!) 0
life support minimum crew
(pilot,1 eng per 35tons plants)
(for 1000 hull, need 14%drives, 140dtons)
so 1 pilot, 4 eng, 5 cabins = 20
bridge(minimum 20dton 1000hull) 20
0 maneuver fuel
10Pn = 10 tons = 10 = 571

I will throw away the 29 tons as fudge factor, mounting brackets etc and use round numbers.

roughly 600 dtons of "ship" to get 400 tons of ice = fuel on target

If Lhyd is the Fuel, the 29 tons becomes demountable tankage, I dunno the numbers, it just reduces the efficiency a touch.

suitable fudge factor, say 40%payload?
fair! discussion? is that about right?

To get my "tin can" back, 200 tons of Cargo, I need to stack 3 of them up with a 400 ton ice ball
to get home.

The net is 3 go out, 3 come back, leaving 800 tons of fuel 4 parsecs out.

Repeat ad nauseum, YMMV depending on which flavour of Traveller is your favorite, but I think you could do it recursively pretty easy, let's see,

1 stack = 3 such ships

1 stack JUMP TO => point A, and back, leaving 800 tons ice (a team), twice a month = 1600 tons ice a month at point A

unnhh...

My mind is old and feeble, would someone more alert do the rest, time for a little nap ... perhaps a little warm milk, thank you nurse ...

sojourner out

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Well, there are some damn great answers in here. What I think I was looking for, was a way to not just use one ship, but set up a series of ships and stations/fuel outposts, so that you can indefinitely run a rift using Jump-1 ships (i.e. not having to go around using Corridor sector). I would think that a 1000+ year old government would find it cheaper in the long run to build something like this. 15-30 parsecs crossed is a whole lot cheaper in fuel than a 60-90+ parsec journey, I would think. Just one Fueling Station Run across the rift in Reft sector would cut down on a lot of fuel burned, and Vargr raids most likely. Nobody ever said those Imperials were smart. But how long would something like this take to set up? If you are only covering maybe 30 parsecs, you could conceivably have something up and running within a year. Now if you were a private company, and partnered with the military so they could get their fuel at a discount or such, maybe in return for "protection"... How would you go about this?

Scout

The problem you face is the cost of moving the fuel to these fueling stations. (Not neccessarily the cost of the fuel itself.) Remember your fuel transports can't take fuel from the refuel site to be effecient. To get to a point Jump-3 out from the edge of the rift would require 3 Jump-2 tankers. One to deliver the fuel, one to fuel the tanker delivering the fuel one hex away from the point on the way in and one to refuel the tanker one hex from the refuel point on the way back. YOu would need 12 tankers to get you 4 hexes out with jump-2 tankers. (YIKES!) Jump-3 tankers set up 4 hexes out with three ships, but your load is definitely going down. It is a logistical nightmare. For comercial viability remember that you have no markets in the rift besides the refueling stations.

Most merchant traffic is short haul. Long haul merchant traffic is not generally economical. So the economic viability for a commercial route across a rift, especially with the costs of keeping fuel there, is nil.