How should the Rebellion have been developed as a product line?

[kaladorn]

I think the last poster made two very creditable product suggestions:

1. Starship Books: Do one on the Type A, on the Type A2, the type S, etc. Do the kind of interior views you get in the DGP Starship Operators Manual (I loved those, and Scarecrow has done some great CG of ship interiors that convince me it can be done well). Focus on the roles of the ship, the little details you'd want if you were going to base a game around one, like how the anti-hijack system works, if the ship has a class defect like a weak air circulation system, the economics of the ship, etc. Tasks which pertain, generically described to be Traveller Version Portable. And of course good deck plans. Get all that into one packet. That's a winning product for all players from CT to T20.

2. Area sourcebooks that don't just provide a glimpse of an area in one period, but a historical study - a glimpse in 2nd Imperium, in M:0, in CT, MT, TNE, and M:1248. Something to give people a sense of the history of an area, the changes, the political and economic issues and the growth of societies and movements. Again, done in a non-version specific manner, to allow it to be valuable to all genre players.

I think either of these could be huge money makers for QLI/FFE.

 

[kaladorn]

I think the last poster made two very creditable product suggestions:

1. Starship Books: Do one on the Type A, on the Type A2, the type S, etc. Do the kind of interior views you get in the DGP Starship Operators Manual (I loved those, and Scarecrow has done some great CG of ship interiors that convince me it can be done well). Focus on the roles of the ship, the little details you'd want if you were going to base a game around one, like how the anti-hijack system works, if the ship has a class defect like a weak air circulation system, the economics of the ship, etc. Tasks which pertain, generically described to be Traveller Version Portable. And of course good deck plans. Get all that into one packet. That's a winning product for all players from CT to T20.

2. Area sourcebooks that don't just provide a glimpse of an area in one period, but a historical study - a glimpse in 2nd Imperium, in M:0, in CT, MT, TNE, and M:1248. Something to give people a sense of the history of an area, the changes, the political and economic issues and the growth of societies and movements. Again, done in a non-version specific manner, to allow it to be valuable to all genre players.

I think either of these could be huge money makers for QLI/FFE.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A referee, on the other hand, will almost always diverge from canon. They are supposed to. It is also usually a very good idea to change things from canon into his game so that the players won't 'know' everything. Again, this is a good thing.

But the presence of the canon is a subtle, or sometimes not so, mirror against which all of a refs divergences will be metered.

I happen to think this is not a good thing.

Witness the number of canon arguments on TML and here. That's all the evidence I really require...

</font>[/QUOTE]I still don't see the "badness" of this. I have personally never seen anyone who runs "unmodified" Traveller, either with the rules or the setting. Heck, there's one guy on the boards who plans on blowing up Regina! Everyone diverges from canon once a game starts.

And even if the Rebellion setting was not moved forward, there would still be arguments over canon. Take the Vargr and ihatei "invasions": do they make sense, or are they just silly. Heck, take the assassination: was Dulinor only unlucky, or was he just stupid? Was Strephon stupid?

The only way to avoid arguments over canon is to not have any setting. Of course that wouldn't help the TML, as they would just start arguing over the rules. (What? They already do that, too? Oh.)

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A referee, on the other hand, will almost always diverge from canon. They are supposed to. It is also usually a very good idea to change things from canon into his game so that the players won't 'know' everything. Again, this is a good thing.

But the presence of the canon is a subtle, or sometimes not so, mirror against which all of a refs divergences will be metered.

I happen to think this is not a good thing.

Witness the number of canon arguments on TML and here. That's all the evidence I really require...

</font>[/QUOTE]I still don't see the "badness" of this. I have personally never seen anyone who runs "unmodified" Traveller, either with the rules or the setting. Heck, there's one guy on the boards who plans on blowing up Regina! Everyone diverges from canon once a game starts.

And even if the Rebellion setting was not moved forward, there would still be arguments over canon. Take the Vargr and ihatei "invasions": do they make sense, or are they just silly. Heck, take the assassination: was Dulinor only unlucky, or was he just stupid? Was Strephon stupid?

The only way to avoid arguments over canon is to not have any setting. Of course that wouldn't help the TML, as they would just start arguing over the rules. (What? They already do that, too? Oh.)

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A referee, on the other hand, will almost always diverge from canon. They are supposed to. It is also usually a very good idea to change things from canon into his game so that the players won't 'know' everything. Again, this is a good thing.

But the presence of the canon is a subtle, or sometimes not so, mirror against which all of a refs divergences will be metered.

I happen to think this is not a good thing.

Witness the number of canon arguments on TML and here. That's all the evidence I really require...

</font>[/QUOTE]I still don't see the "badness" of this. I have personally never seen anyone who runs "unmodified" Traveller, either with the rules or the setting. Heck, there's one guy on the boards who plans on blowing up Regina! Everyone diverges from canon once a game starts.

And even if the Rebellion setting was not moved forward, there would still be arguments over canon. Take the Vargr and ihatei "invasions": do they make sense, or are they just silly. Heck, take the assassination: was Dulinor only unlucky, or was he just stupid? Was Strephon stupid?

The only way to avoid arguments over canon is to not have any setting. Of course that wouldn't help the TML, as they would just start arguing over the rules. (What? They already do that, too? Oh.)

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I just thought the rebellion made little sense overall...

Why would the Death of one individual (The Emperor) completely destroy the fabric of Known Space Society? It wasn't as if he was an active ruler in the direct sense, because of the Jump lag... The Imperium had survived several assassinations before without all the dire calamity...

Also, why would Dulinor kill him in the first place? There's the ambition angle of course, but it seems more than a little short sighted to kill a man in order to rule, if the result is the breakdown of interstellar trade as it once functioned. What would he rule?

Plus, I got the impression that these different factions sprang up over night into cohesive entities, complete with vast armadas... It imples that Sector Dukes and Forces (made by the emperor in all respects) have little in the way of loyalty.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I just thought the rebellion made little sense overall...

Why would the Death of one individual (The Emperor) completely destroy the fabric of Known Space Society? It wasn't as if he was an active ruler in the direct sense, because of the Jump lag... The Imperium had survived several assassinations before without all the dire calamity...

Also, why would Dulinor kill him in the first place? There's the ambition angle of course, but it seems more than a little short sighted to kill a man in order to rule, if the result is the breakdown of interstellar trade as it once functioned. What would he rule?

Plus, I got the impression that these different factions sprang up over night into cohesive entities, complete with vast armadas... It imples that Sector Dukes and Forces (made by the emperor in all respects) have little in the way of loyalty.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I just thought the rebellion made little sense overall...

Why would the Death of one individual (The Emperor) completely destroy the fabric of Known Space Society? It wasn't as if he was an active ruler in the direct sense, because of the Jump lag... The Imperium had survived several assassinations before without all the dire calamity...

Also, why would Dulinor kill him in the first place? There's the ambition angle of course, but it seems more than a little short sighted to kill a man in order to rule, if the result is the breakdown of interstellar trade as it once functioned. What would he rule?

Plus, I got the impression that these different factions sprang up over night into cohesive entities, complete with vast armadas... It imples that Sector Dukes and Forces (made by the emperor in all respects) have little in the way of loyalty.

 

[Erik Boielle]

How crazy is the second world war?

Hitler invaded france when obviously he had no chance of winning, then won, then invaded Russia despite having obviously no chance of winning then, the killed off a third of its population, then lost.

And the Japanese? Taking on the Americans? Are they crazy?

Heck, people still believe in Gods, so really none of it has to make what people wrongly call sense.

---------

Ah, the problem is to much loyalty - to their local commanders.

Big problem for Rome that. The troops have more loyalty to their commanders than the system, and so their commander can get them to march on the home country.

Hence all the civil wars.

See also the large number of coups seen in the world.

 

[Erik Boielle]

How crazy is the second world war?

Hitler invaded france when obviously he had no chance of winning, then won, then invaded Russia despite having obviously no chance of winning then, the killed off a third of its population, then lost.

And the Japanese? Taking on the Americans? Are they crazy?

Heck, people still believe in Gods, so really none of it has to make what people wrongly call sense.

---------

Ah, the problem is to much loyalty - to their local commanders.

Big problem for Rome that. The troops have more loyalty to their commanders than the system, and so their commander can get them to march on the home country.

Hence all the civil wars.

See also the large number of coups seen in the world.

 

[Erik Boielle]

How crazy is the second world war?

Hitler invaded france when obviously he had no chance of winning, then won, then invaded Russia despite having obviously no chance of winning then, the killed off a third of its population, then lost.

And the Japanese? Taking on the Americans? Are they crazy?

Heck, people still believe in Gods, so really none of it has to make what people wrongly call sense.

---------

Ah, the problem is to much loyalty - to their local commanders.

Big problem for Rome that. The troops have more loyalty to their commanders than the system, and so their commander can get them to march on the home country.

Hence all the civil wars.

See also the large number of coups seen in the world.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Plus, I got the impression that these different factions sprang up over night into cohesive entities, complete with vast armadas... It imples that Sector Dukes and Forces (made by the emperor in all respects) have little in the way of loyalty.

Saar, you have in many ways, a very good point. Still it was addressed in the background of the Rebellion...

The 3I, as Erik put it, was an IDEA not a direct entity for many of the line troops, their commanders and the nobility. The vast majority had never been to their Sector capitals, much less Capital itself, and their loyalties lay in much more local personalities. This might be their commander, their subsector duke, their planetary prime minister-for-life, or whoever. Whichever way they jumped, the troops or citizens would follow...

Most citizens/subjects of any polity don't want to make the big complicated policy decisions that will still effect their grandchildren. They hire politicians for that, OR they don't advocate revolution so the current power structure will do that. It's much the same thing, really. They wish for their particular cabbage patch to be healthy and prosperous, and will follow the status quo if that is achieved in general terms. Even in the American or (I would suppose) English Civil Wars, the average enlisted man or NCO joined up for the adventure or because every able bodied man in his community did... NOT because he had a real stake in the war, nessessarily.

This arguement, I think, applies to the Rebellion. WHY did a nut-job like Lucan have so many loyalists? Because he was the titular Emperor and the average Vilani-on-the-street didn't HAVE to make a choice. It was only a few of his senior military commanders and some of their nobility that he actually had to keep sweet with rewards. Everyone else did much the same thing. Why am I in the Daibei faction? Cause Duke Craig said so, that's why!

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Plus, I got the impression that these different factions sprang up over night into cohesive entities, complete with vast armadas... It imples that Sector Dukes and Forces (made by the emperor in all respects) have little in the way of loyalty.

Saar, you have in many ways, a very good point. Still it was addressed in the background of the Rebellion...

The 3I, as Erik put it, was an IDEA not a direct entity for many of the line troops, their commanders and the nobility. The vast majority had never been to their Sector capitals, much less Capital itself, and their loyalties lay in much more local personalities. This might be their commander, their subsector duke, their planetary prime minister-for-life, or whoever. Whichever way they jumped, the troops or citizens would follow...

Most citizens/subjects of any polity don't want to make the big complicated policy decisions that will still effect their grandchildren. They hire politicians for that, OR they don't advocate revolution so the current power structure will do that. It's much the same thing, really. They wish for their particular cabbage patch to be healthy and prosperous, and will follow the status quo if that is achieved in general terms. Even in the American or (I would suppose) English Civil Wars, the average enlisted man or NCO joined up for the adventure or because every able bodied man in his community did... NOT because he had a real stake in the war, nessessarily.

This arguement, I think, applies to the Rebellion. WHY did a nut-job like Lucan have so many loyalists? Because he was the titular Emperor and the average Vilani-on-the-street didn't HAVE to make a choice. It was only a few of his senior military commanders and some of their nobility that he actually had to keep sweet with rewards. Everyone else did much the same thing. Why am I in the Daibei faction? Cause Duke Craig said so, that's why!

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Plus, I got the impression that these different factions sprang up over night into cohesive entities, complete with vast armadas... It imples that Sector Dukes and Forces (made by the emperor in all respects) have little in the way of loyalty.

Saar, you have in many ways, a very good point. Still it was addressed in the background of the Rebellion...

The 3I, as Erik put it, was an IDEA not a direct entity for many of the line troops, their commanders and the nobility. The vast majority had never been to their Sector capitals, much less Capital itself, and their loyalties lay in much more local personalities. This might be their commander, their subsector duke, their planetary prime minister-for-life, or whoever. Whichever way they jumped, the troops or citizens would follow...

Most citizens/subjects of any polity don't want to make the big complicated policy decisions that will still effect their grandchildren. They hire politicians for that, OR they don't advocate revolution so the current power structure will do that. It's much the same thing, really. They wish for their particular cabbage patch to be healthy and prosperous, and will follow the status quo if that is achieved in general terms. Even in the American or (I would suppose) English Civil Wars, the average enlisted man or NCO joined up for the adventure or because every able bodied man in his community did... NOT because he had a real stake in the war, nessessarily.

This arguement, I think, applies to the Rebellion. WHY did a nut-job like Lucan have so many loyalists? Because he was the titular Emperor and the average Vilani-on-the-street didn't HAVE to make a choice. It was only a few of his senior military commanders and some of their nobility that he actually had to keep sweet with rewards. Everyone else did much the same thing. Why am I in the Daibei faction? Cause Duke Craig said so, that's why!

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Erik Boielle:
Hitler invaded france when obviously he had no chance of winning, then won,

Obvious to whom? Not to the staff of the Heer.

Obvious only to those who didn't realize that technological and doctrinal changes has moved the world forward.... or who knew it, but chose to ignore it.

then invaded Russia despite having obviously no chance of winning then, the killed off a third of its population, then lost.

And that, perhaps, was by no means a foregone conclusion. (The losing part... the other part was more predictable....)

And the Japanese? Taking on the Americans? Are they crazy?

No, they just knew from their Axis and Allies game that if they didn't beat the Americans in Turn 1, they were doomed.

Heck, people still believe in Gods, so really none of it has to make what people wrongly call sense.

Not so. It has to make sense *to the people involved* and *given the information those people had at hand*. If it fails that test, there is a problem.

One thing the good Baron misses:

We have no TNS postings from 1113, 1114 or 1115. We don't know how many things Strephon did to frustrate Dulinor's reforms in this period, to alienate Illelish, etc. We don't know what preamble led up to the 'shot out of the blue.' Perhaps it was not so, were one to have a clear eye to the rising actions.

Another point is just because I shake a bottle of nitro and it doesn't blow up once (or twice, or three times) doesn't make shaking the bottle very wise. So the Empire survived prior assassinations.... there may have been different factors at play or merely just *luck!*. Finally, a small probability occurence may have actualized into an event - the inability of the Empire to get a grip on itself.

No system lasts forever and systems that last a long time seem, in many cases, to be taken by surprise when it all comes apart. They are living in the moment. With the jaundiced eye of history, we can say 'ah, you could see that coming!' but we do this from a historical remove.... I doubt that we today can predict accurately where international politics of tomorrow shall be because we are living in this time, in this moment, with all the accompanying myopia that lends.

So too the 3rd Imperium.... and thus the Rebellion.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Erik Boielle:
Hitler invaded france when obviously he had no chance of winning, then won,

Obvious to whom? Not to the staff of the Heer.

Obvious only to those who didn't realize that technological and doctrinal changes has moved the world forward.... or who knew it, but chose to ignore it.

then invaded Russia despite having obviously no chance of winning then, the killed off a third of its population, then lost.

And that, perhaps, was by no means a foregone conclusion. (The losing part... the other part was more predictable....)

And the Japanese? Taking on the Americans? Are they crazy?

No, they just knew from their Axis and Allies game that if they didn't beat the Americans in Turn 1, they were doomed.

Heck, people still believe in Gods, so really none of it has to make what people wrongly call sense.

Not so. It has to make sense *to the people involved* and *given the information those people had at hand*. If it fails that test, there is a problem.

One thing the good Baron misses:

We have no TNS postings from 1113, 1114 or 1115. We don't know how many things Strephon did to frustrate Dulinor's reforms in this period, to alienate Illelish, etc. We don't know what preamble led up to the 'shot out of the blue.' Perhaps it was not so, were one to have a clear eye to the rising actions.

Another point is just because I shake a bottle of nitro and it doesn't blow up once (or twice, or three times) doesn't make shaking the bottle very wise. So the Empire survived prior assassinations.... there may have been different factors at play or merely just *luck!*. Finally, a small probability occurence may have actualized into an event - the inability of the Empire to get a grip on itself.

No system lasts forever and systems that last a long time seem, in many cases, to be taken by surprise when it all comes apart. They are living in the moment. With the jaundiced eye of history, we can say 'ah, you could see that coming!' but we do this from a historical remove.... I doubt that we today can predict accurately where international politics of tomorrow shall be because we are living in this time, in this moment, with all the accompanying myopia that lends.

So too the 3rd Imperium.... and thus the Rebellion.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Erik Boielle:
Hitler invaded france when obviously he had no chance of winning, then won,

Obvious to whom? Not to the staff of the Heer.

Obvious only to those who didn't realize that technological and doctrinal changes has moved the world forward.... or who knew it, but chose to ignore it.

then invaded Russia despite having obviously no chance of winning then, the killed off a third of its population, then lost.

And that, perhaps, was by no means a foregone conclusion. (The losing part... the other part was more predictable....)

And the Japanese? Taking on the Americans? Are they crazy?

No, they just knew from their Axis and Allies game that if they didn't beat the Americans in Turn 1, they were doomed.

Heck, people still believe in Gods, so really none of it has to make what people wrongly call sense.

Not so. It has to make sense *to the people involved* and *given the information those people had at hand*. If it fails that test, there is a problem.

One thing the good Baron misses:

We have no TNS postings from 1113, 1114 or 1115. We don't know how many things Strephon did to frustrate Dulinor's reforms in this period, to alienate Illelish, etc. We don't know what preamble led up to the 'shot out of the blue.' Perhaps it was not so, were one to have a clear eye to the rising actions.

Another point is just because I shake a bottle of nitro and it doesn't blow up once (or twice, or three times) doesn't make shaking the bottle very wise. So the Empire survived prior assassinations.... there may have been different factors at play or merely just *luck!*. Finally, a small probability occurence may have actualized into an event - the inability of the Empire to get a grip on itself.

No system lasts forever and systems that last a long time seem, in many cases, to be taken by surprise when it all comes apart. They are living in the moment. With the jaundiced eye of history, we can say 'ah, you could see that coming!' but we do this from a historical remove.... I doubt that we today can predict accurately where international politics of tomorrow shall be because we are living in this time, in this moment, with all the accompanying myopia that lends.

So too the 3rd Imperium.... and thus the Rebellion.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi all,

looking back at real world history (as far as this is possible in any objective way at all) it mostly reveals, that very few things happened because of rational and far ranged decisions.

In fact I´m very concerned about the influence of only very few people on the fortune of many others, countries or the whole world.
And as the human being is not completely predictable so history isn´t too.
If I take a look on the last 70 years of my former seperated country its really completely weired what kind of things happened.
"How just could that happen" is a typical comment on many parts of worlds history in general.

So I guess nobody could even predict in our real world what will happen next.

That leads to my view of the rebellion stuff.
I guess nobody could judge, that this storyline could or could not have happened.
You may find its silly or not rational or ask for reasons...
But thats the way history goes sometimes.
Just watch the news....

What I would like publishers to do is to flesh out the global storyline, proceeding at the end of the rebellion sourcebook.
I also would still be glad about additional sourcebooks dealing with the several factions in detail.
I would also be glad about a "Conversion Guide for Traveller" enabling the Ref to use all the Traveller dialects (the resources, ships, equipment, vehicles, encounters...) in a more effective way. As the most off us might have to work in order to be able to buy all the Traveller stuff, time becomes more valuable (not speaking of kids, family...)
At least everything should be done to keep Traveller alive, regardless of the rule system dialect....

Best regards,

Mert

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi all,

looking back at real world history (as far as this is possible in any objective way at all) it mostly reveals, that very few things happened because of rational and far ranged decisions.

In fact I´m very concerned about the influence of only very few people on the fortune of many others, countries or the whole world.
And as the human being is not completely predictable so history isn´t too.
If I take a look on the last 70 years of my former seperated country its really completely weired what kind of things happened.
"How just could that happen" is a typical comment on many parts of worlds history in general.

So I guess nobody could even predict in our real world what will happen next.

That leads to my view of the rebellion stuff.
I guess nobody could judge, that this storyline could or could not have happened.
You may find its silly or not rational or ask for reasons...
But thats the way history goes sometimes.
Just watch the news....

What I would like publishers to do is to flesh out the global storyline, proceeding at the end of the rebellion sourcebook.
I also would still be glad about additional sourcebooks dealing with the several factions in detail.
I would also be glad about a "Conversion Guide for Traveller" enabling the Ref to use all the Traveller dialects (the resources, ships, equipment, vehicles, encounters...) in a more effective way. As the most off us might have to work in order to be able to buy all the Traveller stuff, time becomes more valuable (not speaking of kids, family...)
At least everything should be done to keep Traveller alive, regardless of the rule system dialect....

Best regards,

Mert

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi all,

looking back at real world history (as far as this is possible in any objective way at all) it mostly reveals, that very few things happened because of rational and far ranged decisions.

In fact I´m very concerned about the influence of only very few people on the fortune of many others, countries or the whole world.
And as the human being is not completely predictable so history isn´t too.
If I take a look on the last 70 years of my former seperated country its really completely weired what kind of things happened.
"How just could that happen" is a typical comment on many parts of worlds history in general.

So I guess nobody could even predict in our real world what will happen next.

That leads to my view of the rebellion stuff.
I guess nobody could judge, that this storyline could or could not have happened.
You may find its silly or not rational or ask for reasons...
But thats the way history goes sometimes.
Just watch the news....

What I would like publishers to do is to flesh out the global storyline, proceeding at the end of the rebellion sourcebook.
I also would still be glad about additional sourcebooks dealing with the several factions in detail.
I would also be glad about a "Conversion Guide for Traveller" enabling the Ref to use all the Traveller dialects (the resources, ships, equipment, vehicles, encounters...) in a more effective way. As the most off us might have to work in order to be able to buy all the Traveller stuff, time becomes more valuable (not speaking of kids, family...)
At least everything should be done to keep Traveller alive, regardless of the rule system dialect....

Best regards,

Mert