How should the Rebellion have been developed as a product line?

[Erik Boielle]

I dunno.

King Arthur doesn't win.

He goes down, but he does leave a little hope for the future, and starts the whole Chivalry and Knightly Values thing that is the foundation of British Civilisation.

Well, sorta*.

But anyway,

You may sometimes wish that the story ends with all the knights having adventures and feasts, and before L and G get in on and bust it up, but thats how the story goes and somehow I find it more satisfying.

Sorta.

I find I enjoy watching arnie gun down droves of bad guys then make a pithy remark more as I get older.

So, er, it seems more grown up if you have a miserable end?

No, I'm out.

>>Had that not happened, people would still be rooting for their favorite faction,<<

Which leads me back to the Splats thing I was talking about.

Making the factions different, but all in ways that appeal to people makes for easy entry. Slike how some people like The Rebels, and some The Empire, and some Han Solo. Only designed to foster that kind of thing.

But then all the old regimes are implicated in starting and sustaining the war.

Shard to look good after that.

* But I think thats how the story works.

 

[Elliot]

I was reading MTJ4 the otherday and noticed that a draft plan of the future of MT was included in the 'secrets of DGP' section.

This included a war game, which apparently GDW refused to support.

It also included Daibei getting over run by the Solomani.

The Zhodani falling to the Sparklers and Deneb holding the Sparklers back.

Margaret and Dulinor become a firm alliance

Te Real Strephon being revealed as a robot/clone and his party joining the Margaret/Dulinor faction. Presumably have one last push on Lucan and leaving the Sols as a problem force.

Its make interesting reading, even if I don't agree with it.

 

[Elliot]

I was reading MTJ4 the otherday and noticed that a draft plan of the future of MT was included in the 'secrets of DGP' section.

This included a war game, which apparently GDW refused to support.

It also included Daibei getting over run by the Solomani.

The Zhodani falling to the Sparklers and Deneb holding the Sparklers back.

Margaret and Dulinor become a firm alliance

Te Real Strephon being revealed as a robot/clone and his party joining the Margaret/Dulinor faction. Presumably have one last push on Lucan and leaving the Sols as a problem force.

Its make interesting reading, even if I don't agree with it.

 

[Elliot]

I was reading MTJ4 the otherday and noticed that a draft plan of the future of MT was included in the 'secrets of DGP' section.

This included a war game, which apparently GDW refused to support.

It also included Daibei getting over run by the Solomani.

The Zhodani falling to the Sparklers and Deneb holding the Sparklers back.

Margaret and Dulinor become a firm alliance

Te Real Strephon being revealed as a robot/clone and his party joining the Margaret/Dulinor faction. Presumably have one last push on Lucan and leaving the Sols as a problem force.

Its make interesting reading, even if I don't agree with it.

 

[kafka47]

I think that the future of MT was to tone down the Rebellion as the major focus. If you look at their last days in the MJ, it was explicitly to isolate Deneb for a field where "traditional" Traveller adventures could be played out without interference of the Rebellion events.

They would have supported this line with the Alien Modules and Deep Space exploration rules with a parallel development for some of the big events of the Rebellion to unfold.

Funny, I have not read MJ#4 lately but I thought I read that they were trying to get away from the wargame mentality that dominates Traveller play and instead focus on Character development. Remember, how he goes on about looking at the deckplans of the Scout/Couier and reflects how that is so old Traveller, just moving counters around. It would have been nice if DGP would have had a parallel say in the development of future versions of Traveller but alas, they were the victims of not having an Open Licence...

 

[kafka47]

I think that the future of MT was to tone down the Rebellion as the major focus. If you look at their last days in the MJ, it was explicitly to isolate Deneb for a field where "traditional" Traveller adventures could be played out without interference of the Rebellion events.

They would have supported this line with the Alien Modules and Deep Space exploration rules with a parallel development for some of the big events of the Rebellion to unfold.

Funny, I have not read MJ#4 lately but I thought I read that they were trying to get away from the wargame mentality that dominates Traveller play and instead focus on Character development. Remember, how he goes on about looking at the deckplans of the Scout/Couier and reflects how that is so old Traveller, just moving counters around. It would have been nice if DGP would have had a parallel say in the development of future versions of Traveller but alas, they were the victims of not having an Open Licence...

 

[kafka47]

I think that the future of MT was to tone down the Rebellion as the major focus. If you look at their last days in the MJ, it was explicitly to isolate Deneb for a field where "traditional" Traveller adventures could be played out without interference of the Rebellion events.

They would have supported this line with the Alien Modules and Deep Space exploration rules with a parallel development for some of the big events of the Rebellion to unfold.

Funny, I have not read MJ#4 lately but I thought I read that they were trying to get away from the wargame mentality that dominates Traveller play and instead focus on Character development. Remember, how he goes on about looking at the deckplans of the Scout/Couier and reflects how that is so old Traveller, just moving counters around. It would have been nice if DGP would have had a parallel say in the development of future versions of Traveller but alas, they were the victims of not having an Open Licence...

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Elliot:
It also included Daibei getting over run by the Solomani.

I sort of assumed this had happened (or the Virus had done it, but in either case, Diabei was toast, which is too bad as Duke Craig was one of the worthile nobles, from my reading).

The Zhodani falling to the Sparklers and Deneb holding the Sparklers back.

By the Thirteen Restive Spirits of Shonkaru, what is a Sparkler?

Margaret and Dulinor become a firm alliance

Now that one I didn't see any evidence or foreshadowing of, but it makes for an interesting point. Although how people on far sides of Lucan from one another could usefully do this is anybody's guess.

The Real Strephon being revealed as a robot/clone and his party joining the Margaret/Dulinor faction. Presumably have one last push on Lucan and leaving the Sols as a problem force.

Well, I'd have figured he'd have joined up with someone like Margaret.

Its make interesting reading, even if I don't agree with it.

Quite. This alone might make hunting out that rare product worth the effort.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Elliot:
It also included Daibei getting over run by the Solomani.

I sort of assumed this had happened (or the Virus had done it, but in either case, Diabei was toast, which is too bad as Duke Craig was one of the worthile nobles, from my reading).

The Zhodani falling to the Sparklers and Deneb holding the Sparklers back.

By the Thirteen Restive Spirits of Shonkaru, what is a Sparkler?

Margaret and Dulinor become a firm alliance

Now that one I didn't see any evidence or foreshadowing of, but it makes for an interesting point. Although how people on far sides of Lucan from one another could usefully do this is anybody's guess.

The Real Strephon being revealed as a robot/clone and his party joining the Margaret/Dulinor faction. Presumably have one last push on Lucan and leaving the Sols as a problem force.

Well, I'd have figured he'd have joined up with someone like Margaret.

Its make interesting reading, even if I don't agree with it.

Quite. This alone might make hunting out that rare product worth the effort.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Elliot:
It also included Daibei getting over run by the Solomani.

I sort of assumed this had happened (or the Virus had done it, but in either case, Diabei was toast, which is too bad as Duke Craig was one of the worthile nobles, from my reading).

The Zhodani falling to the Sparklers and Deneb holding the Sparklers back.

By the Thirteen Restive Spirits of Shonkaru, what is a Sparkler?

Margaret and Dulinor become a firm alliance

Now that one I didn't see any evidence or foreshadowing of, but it makes for an interesting point. Although how people on far sides of Lucan from one another could usefully do this is anybody's guess.

The Real Strephon being revealed as a robot/clone and his party joining the Margaret/Dulinor faction. Presumably have one last push on Lucan and leaving the Sols as a problem force.

Well, I'd have figured he'd have joined up with someone like Margaret.

Its make interesting reading, even if I don't agree with it.

Quite. This alone might make hunting out that rare product worth the effort.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Funny, I have not read MJ#4 lately but I thought I read that they were trying to get away from the wargame mentality that dominates Traveller play and instead focus on Character development.

Oddly, that reduces the options rather than increases them. There are a lot of folks who enjoy the gearhead, pocket-empire, gun-designing, number crunching thing. Witness TCS, PE, various board games, etc. Witness the MT construction rules for ships and vehicles.

This same emphasis on character probably underpinned that grand waste of paper that they called the Grand Tour in TD. Not terribly playable by any player group I ever had the good fortune to GM.

Remember, how he goes on about looking at the deckplans of the Scout/Couier and reflects how that is so old Traveller, just moving counters around.

...having lost sight of the fact that this was usually in aide of something or run as a separate game.

DGP did some brilliant work:
WBH, SOM, and even MT itself (the mechanics, the underlying task engine and character system improvements, the basics of combat, though I didn't enjoy what they did with ranges, their equipment blurbs). They also produced some stuff which was not well put together (the Rebellion millieu - its particulars were a bit weak, even if the idea was interesting, the TD Grand Tour adventure, etc). In fact, I'd say they did their best works in developing systems of rules and mechanics rather than setting and character. Where they went after the latter, they did a questionable job, IMO.

Still, they form an interesting chapter in the history of the game.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Funny, I have not read MJ#4 lately but I thought I read that they were trying to get away from the wargame mentality that dominates Traveller play and instead focus on Character development.

Oddly, that reduces the options rather than increases them. There are a lot of folks who enjoy the gearhead, pocket-empire, gun-designing, number crunching thing. Witness TCS, PE, various board games, etc. Witness the MT construction rules for ships and vehicles.

This same emphasis on character probably underpinned that grand waste of paper that they called the Grand Tour in TD. Not terribly playable by any player group I ever had the good fortune to GM.

Remember, how he goes on about looking at the deckplans of the Scout/Couier and reflects how that is so old Traveller, just moving counters around.

...having lost sight of the fact that this was usually in aide of something or run as a separate game.

DGP did some brilliant work:
WBH, SOM, and even MT itself (the mechanics, the underlying task engine and character system improvements, the basics of combat, though I didn't enjoy what they did with ranges, their equipment blurbs). They also produced some stuff which was not well put together (the Rebellion millieu - its particulars were a bit weak, even if the idea was interesting, the TD Grand Tour adventure, etc). In fact, I'd say they did their best works in developing systems of rules and mechanics rather than setting and character. Where they went after the latter, they did a questionable job, IMO.

Still, they form an interesting chapter in the history of the game.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Funny, I have not read MJ#4 lately but I thought I read that they were trying to get away from the wargame mentality that dominates Traveller play and instead focus on Character development.

Oddly, that reduces the options rather than increases them. There are a lot of folks who enjoy the gearhead, pocket-empire, gun-designing, number crunching thing. Witness TCS, PE, various board games, etc. Witness the MT construction rules for ships and vehicles.

This same emphasis on character probably underpinned that grand waste of paper that they called the Grand Tour in TD. Not terribly playable by any player group I ever had the good fortune to GM.

Remember, how he goes on about looking at the deckplans of the Scout/Couier and reflects how that is so old Traveller, just moving counters around.

...having lost sight of the fact that this was usually in aide of something or run as a separate game.

DGP did some brilliant work:
WBH, SOM, and even MT itself (the mechanics, the underlying task engine and character system improvements, the basics of combat, though I didn't enjoy what they did with ranges, their equipment blurbs). They also produced some stuff which was not well put together (the Rebellion millieu - its particulars were a bit weak, even if the idea was interesting, the TD Grand Tour adventure, etc). In fact, I'd say they did their best works in developing systems of rules and mechanics rather than setting and character. Where they went after the latter, they did a questionable job, IMO.

Still, they form an interesting chapter in the history of the game.

 

[Elliot]

Its strange that the Starship Operators Manual is seen as DGP's best product - at the time GDW announced that it was one of the most complained about - see

As to the Sparklers - the baddies from the core - they were the alternative to the Empress Wave - the Primordials of Knightfall and inhabitants of Deyis II from the Ref Screen product.

The Zhos core viewing machine was a device designed by Grandfather to study them. The Zhos contacted them and mistook their high psionic ability as a threat - So the Zhodani fought them and lost - the non-psi Imperials in a DGP to-be -published campaign would meet with them, learn they weren't interested in war and all would be happy again. GDW (i.e. Dave) did not like it and it died as an idea.

 

[Elliot]

Its strange that the Starship Operators Manual is seen as DGP's best product - at the time GDW announced that it was one of the most complained about - see

As to the Sparklers - the baddies from the core - they were the alternative to the Empress Wave - the Primordials of Knightfall and inhabitants of Deyis II from the Ref Screen product.

The Zhos core viewing machine was a device designed by Grandfather to study them. The Zhos contacted them and mistook their high psionic ability as a threat - So the Zhodani fought them and lost - the non-psi Imperials in a DGP to-be -published campaign would meet with them, learn they weren't interested in war and all would be happy again. GDW (i.e. Dave) did not like it and it died as an idea.

 

[Elliot]

Its strange that the Starship Operators Manual is seen as DGP's best product - at the time GDW announced that it was one of the most complained about - see

As to the Sparklers - the baddies from the core - they were the alternative to the Empress Wave - the Primordials of Knightfall and inhabitants of Deyis II from the Ref Screen product.

The Zhos core viewing machine was a device designed by Grandfather to study them. The Zhos contacted them and mistook their high psionic ability as a threat - So the Zhodani fought them and lost - the non-psi Imperials in a DGP to-be -published campaign would meet with them, learn they weren't interested in war and all would be happy again. GDW (i.e. Dave) did not like it and it died as an idea.

 

[Elliot]

Sorry I forgot the link - http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/tca/tne.txt

a post MT pre TNE communique - see under products

 

[Elliot]

Sorry I forgot the link - http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/tca/tne.txt

a post MT pre TNE communique - see under products

 

[Elliot]

Sorry I forgot the link - http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/tca/tne.txt

a post MT pre TNE communique - see under products

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
The mere *existence* of this canon legitemizes views that support it and undermines views that do not, even if a referee is prepared to 'go his own way'. His players will always know there is the 'official' version and will compare his work to it.

This is not true. Not all referees are unlucky enough to be saddled with that kind of players. None of my current players, for instance, knows anything about the Traveller canon except as filtered through me. And previous players who did buy Traveller material were perfectly happy to allow me to change whatever I wanted (They did feel entitled to a hint whenever I changed something they would otherwise have based their actions upon. I agree completely with that view).

And IMO any player who did require his referee to stick religiously to canon would be wrong. As much in the wrong as a player who castigated his GM for using Sherlock Holmes or Harry Flashman in a historical adventure IMO would be.

But the presence of the canon is a subtle, or sometimes not so, mirror against which all of a refs divergences will be metered.

I happen to think this is not a good thing.

The solution is simple. Don't base your campaign on the Official Traveller Universe (or the GTU either).

Indeed, if you really think that the presence of canon is a bad thing, I can't understand why you concern yourself with any Traveller discussion other than those purely concerned with rules. I'm not trying to be snide here. If canon is a bad thing, what do you use instead? Your very own campaign universe entirely made up by you alone, supplemented, perhaps, by generic adventures adapted to your universe?

Witness the number of canon arguments on TML and here. That's all the evidence I really require...

Evidence of what, pray?


Hans