How should the Rebellion have been developed as a product line?

[daryen]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
I think 'canon' is one of the greatest lodestones around the necks of traveller referees now and in the future. The bulk of the past acts as a drag-anchor to the progress into the future....

The only way that 'canon' can be a millstone (which is what I think you were trying for) around a referee's neck is if it is used wrong.

Canon is a good thing. But canon is for *writers* and contributors, NOT referees. Writers and contributors need to have canon, so that what is written and added to the game can be as consistent as possible.

A referee, on the other hand, will almost always diverge from canon. They are supposed to. It is also usually a very good idea to change things from canon into his game so that the players won't 'know' everything. Again, this is a good thing.

 

[Elliot]

If I found a tunnel into Joe Fugate's head (a la the John Malkovich film) I would have brought out a Daibei sourcebook - a sort of GT:BTC or Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora sector guide mixed with an expanded Rebel Reporter write up (from TD) and MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL a section in the style of 76 patrons, Amber Zones and short scenarios from JTAS. I would have followed that up with a big Daibei campaign adventure.

And then an Antares book and campaign

The alien modules would have been followed up by adventure modules giving Vargr, Vilani, Solomani and Aslan adventures.

And then I would have made the K'Kree attack while the carnivores were weak - that would have been cool.

If I were Joe I also probably would have brought out a Deneb sourcebook.

And the war games as explained above - with neutral settings like Striker and TNE Battle Riders (although reading TJ4 Joe and co weren't into war games.)

Damn it... why didn't I do all this in 1990 when I had the time!

Yours, fantasizing on what could have been

Elliot

 

[Elliot]

If I found a tunnel into Joe Fugate's head (a la the John Malkovich film) I would have brought out a Daibei sourcebook - a sort of GT:BTC or Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora sector guide mixed with an expanded Rebel Reporter write up (from TD) and MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL a section in the style of 76 patrons, Amber Zones and short scenarios from JTAS. I would have followed that up with a big Daibei campaign adventure.

And then an Antares book and campaign

The alien modules would have been followed up by adventure modules giving Vargr, Vilani, Solomani and Aslan adventures.

And then I would have made the K'Kree attack while the carnivores were weak - that would have been cool.

If I were Joe I also probably would have brought out a Deneb sourcebook.

And the war games as explained above - with neutral settings like Striker and TNE Battle Riders (although reading TJ4 Joe and co weren't into war games.)

Damn it... why didn't I do all this in 1990 when I had the time!

Yours, fantasizing on what could have been

Elliot

 

[Elliot]

If I found a tunnel into Joe Fugate's head (a la the John Malkovich film) I would have brought out a Daibei sourcebook - a sort of GT:BTC or Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora sector guide mixed with an expanded Rebel Reporter write up (from TD) and MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL a section in the style of 76 patrons, Amber Zones and short scenarios from JTAS. I would have followed that up with a big Daibei campaign adventure.

And then an Antares book and campaign

The alien modules would have been followed up by adventure modules giving Vargr, Vilani, Solomani and Aslan adventures.

And then I would have made the K'Kree attack while the carnivores were weak - that would have been cool.

If I were Joe I also probably would have brought out a Deneb sourcebook.

And the war games as explained above - with neutral settings like Striker and TNE Battle Riders (although reading TJ4 Joe and co weren't into war games.)

Damn it... why didn't I do all this in 1990 when I had the time!

Yours, fantasizing on what could have been

Elliot

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by thrash:

With the prescience to foresee that result, I would instead use the Rebellion (past tense) as a device to reshape the Official Traveller Universe to whatever I thought would best promote adventuring. Play the war out to a conclusion using in-house rules (a la 2300 AD and "The Great Game"). Use that data to create a coherent but diverse and dynamic set of roleplaying settings, without the need to wipe the slate and start from scratch (i.e., Virus).

That's much what was done with the FFW, IIRC.

The narrative of the war would still be available to referees who wanted to game out specific operations, or run "alternate history" campaigns based on changes in their outcome. The "official" answers would be on the table from the beginning, though, so that everyone else could get on with their own campaigns without fear of subsequent metaplot developments over-writing something they've worked hard to create.

This approach would also allow the publication of a really high-scale stategy game for the rebellion. A bigger Imperium, perhaps.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by thrash:

With the prescience to foresee that result, I would instead use the Rebellion (past tense) as a device to reshape the Official Traveller Universe to whatever I thought would best promote adventuring. Play the war out to a conclusion using in-house rules (a la 2300 AD and "The Great Game"). Use that data to create a coherent but diverse and dynamic set of roleplaying settings, without the need to wipe the slate and start from scratch (i.e., Virus).

That's much what was done with the FFW, IIRC.

The narrative of the war would still be available to referees who wanted to game out specific operations, or run "alternate history" campaigns based on changes in their outcome. The "official" answers would be on the table from the beginning, though, so that everyone else could get on with their own campaigns without fear of subsequent metaplot developments over-writing something they've worked hard to create.

This approach would also allow the publication of a really high-scale stategy game for the rebellion. A bigger Imperium, perhaps.

 

[Rupert Boleyn]

Originally posted by thrash:

With the prescience to foresee that result, I would instead use the Rebellion (past tense) as a device to reshape the Official Traveller Universe to whatever I thought would best promote adventuring. Play the war out to a conclusion using in-house rules (a la 2300 AD and "The Great Game"). Use that data to create a coherent but diverse and dynamic set of roleplaying settings, without the need to wipe the slate and start from scratch (i.e., Virus).

That's much what was done with the FFW, IIRC.

The narrative of the war would still be available to referees who wanted to game out specific operations, or run "alternate history" campaigns based on changes in their outcome. The "official" answers would be on the table from the beginning, though, so that everyone else could get on with their own campaigns without fear of subsequent metaplot developments over-writing something they've worked hard to create.

This approach would also allow the publication of a really high-scale stategy game for the rebellion. A bigger Imperium, perhaps.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Gods gentlemen... Reading this thread has kinda been like those scotch-fueled game geek philosophy conversations at (Insert Your Local)-Con! A bunch of us old-timers getting together over a pint and hashing out Where Gaming Went Wrong (or Right)...

{[insert voiceover of 'Festus' from 'Gunsmoke'] "I'll tell ya where it t'all went wrong, dangnabbit! It was dat gol-durned D&D cartoon! Dat's whut done it!}

OK, my two millicredits worth... Insofar as the Rebellion Era went, I have the impression (don't know where I got it) that MWM didn't nessessarily HAVE a final plan for the End of the 3I As We Know It (and I feel fine...). More than anything else, he wanted to "open up" the vast monolithic interior of the Imperium for exploration by a rabid Traveller junkie audience. That would be us...

Look, GDW went in the crapper because the product quality dropped, the deadlines were routinely missed, and paper costs went through the roof. Realistically the only way a game company could make a profit on an item like the "Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora Sector" would have been to release a PDF, and the market wasn't available at the time, more's the pity.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Gods gentlemen... Reading this thread has kinda been like those scotch-fueled game geek philosophy conversations at (Insert Your Local)-Con! A bunch of us old-timers getting together over a pint and hashing out Where Gaming Went Wrong (or Right)...

{[insert voiceover of 'Festus' from 'Gunsmoke'] "I'll tell ya where it t'all went wrong, dangnabbit! It was dat gol-durned D&D cartoon! Dat's whut done it!}

OK, my two millicredits worth... Insofar as the Rebellion Era went, I have the impression (don't know where I got it) that MWM didn't nessessarily HAVE a final plan for the End of the 3I As We Know It (and I feel fine...). More than anything else, he wanted to "open up" the vast monolithic interior of the Imperium for exploration by a rabid Traveller junkie audience. That would be us...

Look, GDW went in the crapper because the product quality dropped, the deadlines were routinely missed, and paper costs went through the roof. Realistically the only way a game company could make a profit on an item like the "Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora Sector" would have been to release a PDF, and the market wasn't available at the time, more's the pity.

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

Gods gentlemen... Reading this thread has kinda been like those scotch-fueled game geek philosophy conversations at (Insert Your Local)-Con! A bunch of us old-timers getting together over a pint and hashing out Where Gaming Went Wrong (or Right)...

{[insert voiceover of 'Festus' from 'Gunsmoke'] "I'll tell ya where it t'all went wrong, dangnabbit! It was dat gol-durned D&D cartoon! Dat's whut done it!}

OK, my two millicredits worth... Insofar as the Rebellion Era went, I have the impression (don't know where I got it) that MWM didn't nessessarily HAVE a final plan for the End of the 3I As We Know It (and I feel fine...). More than anything else, he wanted to "open up" the vast monolithic interior of the Imperium for exploration by a rabid Traveller junkie audience. That would be us...

Look, GDW went in the crapper because the product quality dropped, the deadlines were routinely missed, and paper costs went through the roof. Realistically the only way a game company could make a profit on an item like the "Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora Sector" would have been to release a PDF, and the market wasn't available at the time, more's the pity.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by daryen:
The only way that 'canon' can be a millstone (which is what I think you were trying for) around a referee's neck is if it is used wrong.

This has been argued, but it isn't entirely true.

The mere *existence* of this canon legitemizes views that support it and undermines views that do not, even if a referee is prepared to 'go his own way'. His players will always know there is the 'official' version and will compare his work to it.

Writers and contributors need to have canon, so that what is written and added to the game can be as consistent as possible.

What I'm arguing is that some types of story are climactic. The Rebellion was. Nothing should try to follow closely on after that. Let the players and GMs write that history....

I guess I think of MT as a great place to end a game publishing empire and a great place to begin a game. It isn't the kind of scenario you setup if you plan on publishing more in that line (as we've seen from what happened...).

A referee, on the other hand, will almost always diverge from canon. They are supposed to. It is also usually a very good idea to change things from canon into his game so that the players won't 'know' everything. Again, this is a good thing.

But the presence of the canon is a subtle, or sometimes not so, mirror against which all of a refs divergences will be metered.

I happen to think this is not a good thing.

Witness the number of canon arguments on TML and here. That's all the evidence I really require...

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by daryen:
The only way that 'canon' can be a millstone (which is what I think you were trying for) around a referee's neck is if it is used wrong.

This has been argued, but it isn't entirely true.

The mere *existence* of this canon legitemizes views that support it and undermines views that do not, even if a referee is prepared to 'go his own way'. His players will always know there is the 'official' version and will compare his work to it.

Writers and contributors need to have canon, so that what is written and added to the game can be as consistent as possible.

What I'm arguing is that some types of story are climactic. The Rebellion was. Nothing should try to follow closely on after that. Let the players and GMs write that history....

I guess I think of MT as a great place to end a game publishing empire and a great place to begin a game. It isn't the kind of scenario you setup if you plan on publishing more in that line (as we've seen from what happened...).

A referee, on the other hand, will almost always diverge from canon. They are supposed to. It is also usually a very good idea to change things from canon into his game so that the players won't 'know' everything. Again, this is a good thing.

But the presence of the canon is a subtle, or sometimes not so, mirror against which all of a refs divergences will be metered.

I happen to think this is not a good thing.

Witness the number of canon arguments on TML and here. That's all the evidence I really require...

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by daryen:
The only way that 'canon' can be a millstone (which is what I think you were trying for) around a referee's neck is if it is used wrong.

This has been argued, but it isn't entirely true.

The mere *existence* of this canon legitemizes views that support it and undermines views that do not, even if a referee is prepared to 'go his own way'. His players will always know there is the 'official' version and will compare his work to it.

Writers and contributors need to have canon, so that what is written and added to the game can be as consistent as possible.

What I'm arguing is that some types of story are climactic. The Rebellion was. Nothing should try to follow closely on after that. Let the players and GMs write that history....

I guess I think of MT as a great place to end a game publishing empire and a great place to begin a game. It isn't the kind of scenario you setup if you plan on publishing more in that line (as we've seen from what happened...).

A referee, on the other hand, will almost always diverge from canon. They are supposed to. It is also usually a very good idea to change things from canon into his game so that the players won't 'know' everything. Again, this is a good thing.

But the presence of the canon is a subtle, or sometimes not so, mirror against which all of a refs divergences will be metered.

I happen to think this is not a good thing.

Witness the number of canon arguments on TML and here. That's all the evidence I really require...

 

[kafka47]

Eliott,

Some of what you dream for already exists out there. The MegaTraveller Journal in its short life could be called The Deneb Sourcebook, throw in some things from the Regency sourcebook and you have it all. (afterall, they refer openly to DGP products)

I have yet to recieve the HWIG CD ROMs but both DGP and GDW writers were very active in that organization therefore I find it hard to believe that there is not something on the discs that pertain the future developments of the Rebellion milieu. Afterall, a copy of Deep Explorations (the sourcebook for beyond Chartered Space is there, I think). I had things like that before my previous computer's hard drive got fried.

Having the K'kree attack is one option as we know that Keith was playing around with genetically modified K'kree with the Lords of Thunder Pocket Empire eventually turning their attention to 2000 worlds.

But, as I was saying before I had to help a customer. With MWM adopting the handle Avery, it must be clear that he does approve in some way the way Traveller went to TNE.

Stalemating factions, as it was presented in the Rebellion Sourcebook, just seems to be too much like the Dalek-Movellian conflict. Both too logical for their own good but running out of resources killing one another, so stalemate.

Hopefully, Quicklink will take up your idea of a sequel to a Rebellion sourcebook. A sort of consolidation of Hard Times & Rebellion sourcebook.

 

[kafka47]

Eliott,

Some of what you dream for already exists out there. The MegaTraveller Journal in its short life could be called The Deneb Sourcebook, throw in some things from the Regency sourcebook and you have it all. (afterall, they refer openly to DGP products)

I have yet to recieve the HWIG CD ROMs but both DGP and GDW writers were very active in that organization therefore I find it hard to believe that there is not something on the discs that pertain the future developments of the Rebellion milieu. Afterall, a copy of Deep Explorations (the sourcebook for beyond Chartered Space is there, I think). I had things like that before my previous computer's hard drive got fried.

Having the K'kree attack is one option as we know that Keith was playing around with genetically modified K'kree with the Lords of Thunder Pocket Empire eventually turning their attention to 2000 worlds.

But, as I was saying before I had to help a customer. With MWM adopting the handle Avery, it must be clear that he does approve in some way the way Traveller went to TNE.

Stalemating factions, as it was presented in the Rebellion Sourcebook, just seems to be too much like the Dalek-Movellian conflict. Both too logical for their own good but running out of resources killing one another, so stalemate.

Hopefully, Quicklink will take up your idea of a sequel to a Rebellion sourcebook. A sort of consolidation of Hard Times & Rebellion sourcebook.

 

[kafka47]

Eliott,

Some of what you dream for already exists out there. The MegaTraveller Journal in its short life could be called The Deneb Sourcebook, throw in some things from the Regency sourcebook and you have it all. (afterall, they refer openly to DGP products)

I have yet to recieve the HWIG CD ROMs but both DGP and GDW writers were very active in that organization therefore I find it hard to believe that there is not something on the discs that pertain the future developments of the Rebellion milieu. Afterall, a copy of Deep Explorations (the sourcebook for beyond Chartered Space is there, I think). I had things like that before my previous computer's hard drive got fried.

Having the K'kree attack is one option as we know that Keith was playing around with genetically modified K'kree with the Lords of Thunder Pocket Empire eventually turning their attention to 2000 worlds.

But, as I was saying before I had to help a customer. With MWM adopting the handle Avery, it must be clear that he does approve in some way the way Traveller went to TNE.

Stalemating factions, as it was presented in the Rebellion Sourcebook, just seems to be too much like the Dalek-Movellian conflict. Both too logical for their own good but running out of resources killing one another, so stalemate.

Hopefully, Quicklink will take up your idea of a sequel to a Rebellion sourcebook. A sort of consolidation of Hard Times & Rebellion sourcebook.

 

[savage]

Frankly, I like the game arc never ending...is an explainable dead empire followed by turmoil. This caused me to start me T20 TNE campaign.

There is at least one ref website that tries to explain the 4th imperium and that is fine.

Actually, not only was productivity dropping but GDW spilt up. Hence, MM didn't participate heavily in future versions until forming T4 under the banner of FarFutures. I think he did the right thing when he placed T4 earier.
What about gamining in the other imperium's?

The problem has always been product quality. Not enough time for playtesting. Product Developers that were green...etc. T4 Starships' author had never developed anything before that in RPG...not a good background for that particular product.


What we really need:
Enhance the environments as they are!
- More World or Subsector sourcebooks describing those areas over time.
- Extensive starship books. Take something like Digests' starship manual but do it for other ships. Not just deckplans and specs. Go back
to Leviathan, Kinunir, and Broadsword...do "real"
ship books.
- Convert old material to T20. Gee the hard thing about running a T20 campaign is developing "everything".
- Books about surrounding empires....and their histories.
- Easier tools for Refing! Take Heaven and Earth, Galactic and let them sell new versions that are easier to use. Wouldn't it be great if a PC did a scan and you could hand him the H&E MT Player scan information....keeping Ref info seperate...and wouldn't it be great to say make this world and system completely, store it as a file, print it correctly...you only get that from selling products.
- How about NPC development programs instead of 76 gunmen
- how about Battle Sourcebooks, folks. Outside of Rebellion sourcebook and Survival Margin we really don't have a strong understanding.

***
I don't see any need to re-write anything done by Judges Guild or Digest Group. Those works stand as they are. Its better to spend time adding to Marc's Traveller rather than re-writing it.

Just a few thoughts,

Savage

 

[savage]

Frankly, I like the game arc never ending...is an explainable dead empire followed by turmoil. This caused me to start me T20 TNE campaign.

There is at least one ref website that tries to explain the 4th imperium and that is fine.

Actually, not only was productivity dropping but GDW spilt up. Hence, MM didn't participate heavily in future versions until forming T4 under the banner of FarFutures. I think he did the right thing when he placed T4 earier.
What about gamining in the other imperium's?

The problem has always been product quality. Not enough time for playtesting. Product Developers that were green...etc. T4 Starships' author had never developed anything before that in RPG...not a good background for that particular product.


What we really need:
Enhance the environments as they are!
- More World or Subsector sourcebooks describing those areas over time.
- Extensive starship books. Take something like Digests' starship manual but do it for other ships. Not just deckplans and specs. Go back
to Leviathan, Kinunir, and Broadsword...do "real"
ship books.
- Convert old material to T20. Gee the hard thing about running a T20 campaign is developing "everything".
- Books about surrounding empires....and their histories.
- Easier tools for Refing! Take Heaven and Earth, Galactic and let them sell new versions that are easier to use. Wouldn't it be great if a PC did a scan and you could hand him the H&E MT Player scan information....keeping Ref info seperate...and wouldn't it be great to say make this world and system completely, store it as a file, print it correctly...you only get that from selling products.
- How about NPC development programs instead of 76 gunmen
- how about Battle Sourcebooks, folks. Outside of Rebellion sourcebook and Survival Margin we really don't have a strong understanding.

***
I don't see any need to re-write anything done by Judges Guild or Digest Group. Those works stand as they are. Its better to spend time adding to Marc's Traveller rather than re-writing it.

Just a few thoughts,

Savage

 

[savage]

Frankly, I like the game arc never ending...is an explainable dead empire followed by turmoil. This caused me to start me T20 TNE campaign.

There is at least one ref website that tries to explain the 4th imperium and that is fine.

Actually, not only was productivity dropping but GDW spilt up. Hence, MM didn't participate heavily in future versions until forming T4 under the banner of FarFutures. I think he did the right thing when he placed T4 earier.
What about gamining in the other imperium's?

The problem has always been product quality. Not enough time for playtesting. Product Developers that were green...etc. T4 Starships' author had never developed anything before that in RPG...not a good background for that particular product.


What we really need:
Enhance the environments as they are!
- More World or Subsector sourcebooks describing those areas over time.
- Extensive starship books. Take something like Digests' starship manual but do it for other ships. Not just deckplans and specs. Go back
to Leviathan, Kinunir, and Broadsword...do "real"
ship books.
- Convert old material to T20. Gee the hard thing about running a T20 campaign is developing "everything".
- Books about surrounding empires....and their histories.
- Easier tools for Refing! Take Heaven and Earth, Galactic and let them sell new versions that are easier to use. Wouldn't it be great if a PC did a scan and you could hand him the H&E MT Player scan information....keeping Ref info seperate...and wouldn't it be great to say make this world and system completely, store it as a file, print it correctly...you only get that from selling products.
- How about NPC development programs instead of 76 gunmen
- how about Battle Sourcebooks, folks. Outside of Rebellion sourcebook and Survival Margin we really don't have a strong understanding.

***
I don't see any need to re-write anything done by Judges Guild or Digest Group. Those works stand as they are. Its better to spend time adding to Marc's Traveller rather than re-writing it.

Just a few thoughts,

Savage

 

[kaladorn]

I think the last poster made two very creditable product suggestions:

1. Starship Books: Do one on the Type A, on the Type A2, the type S, etc. Do the kind of interior views you get in the DGP Starship Operators Manual (I loved those, and Scarecrow has done some great CG of ship interiors that convince me it can be done well). Focus on the roles of the ship, the little details you'd want if you were going to base a game around one, like how the anti-hijack system works, if the ship has a class defect like a weak air circulation system, the economics of the ship, etc. Tasks which pertain, generically described to be Traveller Version Portable. And of course good deck plans. Get all that into one packet. That's a winning product for all players from CT to T20.

2. Area sourcebooks that don't just provide a glimpse of an area in one period, but a historical study - a glimpse in 2nd Imperium, in M:0, in CT, MT, TNE, and M:1248. Something to give people a sense of the history of an area, the changes, the political and economic issues and the growth of societies and movements. Again, done in a non-version specific manner, to allow it to be valuable to all genre players.

I think either of these could be huge money makers for QLI/FFE.