How powerful are T5 dukes?

[Reban]

The only link between noble rank and government office in GT:Nobles is a list of positions with the minimum ranks required to fill them.

If we are both looking at the table on p71 titled Summary of Imperial Positions in GT:Nobles the table could present a model for precedence if no other exists.

I was also including the Lord Grand High Chamberlain (Hereditary office of the Archduke of Sol), the Chancellor of the Palace and the Majordomestic who is head of the Office of the Emperor (something close to the Keeper of the Privy Purse and Master of the Household).

Soc is probably too confining to use for everything, certain concepts, such as precedence, are most likely more evolved. T5 does break soc out more; but I think the precedence is about not letting a duke with title but no position, be able to give orders to a count with position, and that the fief is different than one's area of responsibility. One thing that is apparent, is that soc actually doesn't equal position, and that there is significant social mobility over the old orders of terrestrial nobility

Yes I think Soc and Precedence are quite widely separated both in real world terms and in Traveller terms. I think the dispersed nature of the Imperium is going to favor the person with the right skill set for a position rather than the proper breeding. Likely this is something that would be first to emerge in a spacefaring society followed by a system of peerage as it becomes a colonial society.

 

[atpollard]

The island is about 3 miles by 12 miles, so how ever many acres fit in that would be your number, but I never got acres so I have no idea how many that is. But you don't get Central Park or the UN. Might give you Roosevelt Island though.

Terrain Hex (Economic Control) = 6,500 sq. km. (100km dia.) = 1.6 million acres
Local Hex (Outright Ownership) = 65 sq. km. (10km dia.) = 16 thousand acres
Manhattan (land only) = 59.5 sq. km. = 14,697 acres

[FYI: 1 square kilometer = 247 acres]

 

[Reban]

A square mile is 640 acres.

A Local Hex is 16,000 acres so I own outright all of the Island of Manhattan

Okay keep the UN but I'm imposing a levy on all ticket sales on Broadway and I'm skimming 1% off the top of every trade that goes through the brokers on Wall Street.

And one more thing. I hear-by appoint the Singing Cowboy as my High Sheriff.
:rofl:

Seriously though parachuting in a Noble via land grant on an established world could be disruptive. Better have the Imperial Marines on stand by to burn the bondholders if the new Lord of Manhattan starts exerting economic control.

In fact an old and well established fief have the ability to turn on or off the economic taps of any world in the Imperium just just by using the legal methods and instruments conferred by the Grant.

This is a real answer to how powerful any Noble (or Scout or Gentleman) is.


EDIT for Atpollard's figures

 

[Dragoner]

Yes I think Soc and Precedence are quite widely separated both in real world terms and in Traveller terms. I think the dispersed nature of the Imperium is going to favor the person with the right skill set for a position rather than the proper breeding. Likely this is something that would be first to emerge in a spacefaring society followed by a system of peerage as it becomes a colonial society.

Yes, it might be good to list some fundamentals of where the nobility come from and how they work.

1. Marc lifted them from Piper's Space Viking, as a rider with the system of Feudal Technocracy; though obviously they do not war with each other in such an outright manner as they do in the book.

2. Soc might mean title, but title does not equal either position or precedence.

3. While titles, and position might be hereditary, the system is not prima facie hereditary in a legal sense; titles and position exist only by the privilege of the Emperor, eg:

All noble ranks within the peerage come from the Emperor.

So in conclusion, the only real change T5 brings is automatic enfeoffment, in which it is significant, but not a game changer.

 

[Vladika]

I never got acres so I have no idea how many that is

640 Acres per square mile.

 

[Bloo]

1. Marc lifted them from Piper's Space Viking, as a rider with the system of Feudal Technocracy; though obviously they do not war with each other in such an outright manner as they do in the book.

Been a while since I've read that, but wasn't it more of a Feudal Aristocracy with Technology?

 

[Dragoner]

Been a while since I've read that, but wasn't it more of a Feudal Aristocracy with Technology?

I have loaned out my copy, so I don't have it for easy reference; but it is however Marc is wanting to interpret it as being.

 

[Bloo]

I have loaned out my copy, so I don't have it for easy reference; but it is however Marc is wanting to interpret it as being.

Not particularly helpful.

What Marc has most recently said is that a Feudal Technocracy is:

Feudal Technocracy. Governmental relationships based on mutually beneficial technical activities.

Originally, he said:

Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial.

A quick skim of Space Viking reveals that the government of the Sword Worlds described (at least in the early part of the book) is most definitely not that. It is feudal, heriditary aristrocracies that cooperate and compete, even routinely raiding each other for goods and people.

 

[Dragoner]

Don reposted the annotated High Passage #5 Planetary Governments article from AP2 in the private T5 forum, it might be on his website now, but afiak that is Marc's most recent comments.

 

[Reban]

Just FYI for people following the topic of Gentlemen's Land Grants that I've been bringing up in this thread.

According to the latest Ver0.6 Errata Soc A with the Title of Gentlemen now get one Hex on a Mainworld anywhere in the Imperium.

This seems to be a change in our understanding of which column was Mainworld and which was non-Mainworld. Since the figures are the same for all other ranks the only material change is to Gentlemen.

 

[ken at sunrise]

I know this isn't cannon and right now doesn't even match the book but I thought it was interesting.
It comes from here - http://www.traveller-tpp.com/Imperial Nobility.html

As I said it IS NOT CANNON. But if you were running a game and the government of the Imperium and the ruling class this is usable.
i.e. the nobles are the government. Of course a Noble what was in the imperial navy would be even more respected and possibly powerful, but that would be for a GM.

Official Rank/Royalty (Hereditary)	Title SOC	Domain Governed
Emperor / Empress	18	Third Imperium
Nobility (only the eldest son or daughter can hold these titles)
Arch Duke or Arch Duchess	17	Quadrant
Duke or Duchess	16	Sector
Count or Countess (Earl or Viscount)	15	Subsector
Marquess or Marquessa	14	Solar System
Baron or Baroness	13	Planet
Gentry (Non-Hereditary)
Knight (Sir or Dame)	12	Nation or Region
Citizenry
Commoner	11-4	None
Servantry
Ex-Convict	3	None
Serving Prisoner	2	None

Just passing along thoughts.