How powerful are T5 dukes?

[rancke]

Hans, you need to read Library Data again, it is not hereditary:

Nobility is acquired through letters patent (patents of nobility) issued by the Emperor.

and precedence is ex officio, not by title:

Precedence is accorded strictly on the basis of government position...

And you need to consider the entire text and other relevant texts instead of cherry-picking a couple of lines and ignoring the rest:

"Nobility is usually hereditary. Once granted, a title continues to be passed down to succeeding generations." [LDNZ:34]

"Individual worlds, and even entire systems, are free to govern themselves as they desire, provided ultimate power is always accorded the Imperium. Interstellar government begins at the subsector level -- on one world designated the subsector capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected by higher levels of government. This duke has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors." [LDAM:7]

"Precedence is accorded strictly on the basis of government position, with seniority by date of patent following." [LDNZ:35]

I'm not sure exactly what that last quote means; it sounds like being a noble is considered a government position, though this would seem to contradict the rule that all Imperial nobles with the same title (whether they have a government function or not) have the same social standing.

But I do know that in the examples of subsector dukes (and other high nobles) that we have, they inherit their positions. The Emperor doesn't have to confirm the direct heir; he can even alienate the title entirely from a family. But if the heir is capable of doing the job, the Emperor usually sticks with that.


Hans

 

[rancke]

But does he rule the worlds or "the space between the worlds" as has been stated in all previous renditions.

"The space between the worlds" is a nice sound-byte but it provides very little wealth and power. I think it's a slogan, nothing more.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

It looks like you do not understand it:

the Emperor has the option of not confirming

as I quoted earlier from library data.

The inheritance is one of convenience, it is not indisputable, such as from God or the Church as in Europe.

This may help in understanding how precedence works:

An individual who is a member of a close family
with noble rank is usually considered a member of the nobility even though that
individual may not personally hold a title.

It's all there, you just have aren't reading it right or something. In your quote even, the duke doesn't rule the worlds, they are free to govern themselves, thus the duke is an agent for the Imperium, much like a goodwill ambassador.

 

[rancke]

The inheritance is one of convenience, it is not indisputable, such as from God or the Church as in Europe.

"Nobility is usually hereditary. Once granted, a title continues to be passed down to succeeding generations." [LDNZ:34]​

It's all there, you just have aren't reading it right or something. In your quote even, the duke doesn't rule the worlds, they are free to govern themselves, thus the duke is an agent for the Imperium, much like a goodwill ambassador.

"Individual worlds, and even entire systems, are free to govern themselves as they desire, provided ultimate power is always accorded the Imperium. Interstellar government begins at the subsector level -- on one world designated the subsector capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected by higher levels of government. This duke has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors." [LDAM:7]​

"...in the examples of subsector dukes (and other high nobles) that we have, they inherit their positions. The Emperor doesn't have to confirm the direct heir; he can even alienate the title entirely from a family. But if the heir is capable of doing the job, the Emperor usually sticks with that."​

Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I think you are trying to shoehorn European nobility into the Imperium and it doesn't fit. The dux bellorum system is more informative than the almanach de gotha.

The inheritance isn't automatic, it still must be confirmed:

Nobles, upon
receiving their patent or upon confirming their inheritance when coming of age,
swear continuing loyalty to the Imperium, to the Emperor, and to the Emperor's
successors. Failure to do so can void the patent, for the generation or permanently.

even in the section you quoted:

selected by higher levels of government

does that sound hereditary?

The member worlds are free to govern themselves, just because it says the ruling noble, it does not say the noble rules those worlds, English is a funny language sometimes. Some of this might be that you are not used to a common law system where contracts are much more defined than a civil law system.

 

[rancke]

even in the section you quoted:

selected by higher levels of government

does that sound hereditary?

I think the word 'hereditary' sounds like 'hereditary'. When a position as duke is first created or a position opens up for whatever reason, the new duke is selected by the Emperor. Otherwise it is usually inherited. The Aledons inherited the title of Duke of Regina down through 500 years. The hereditary Matriarch of Mora becomes the Duchess of Mora too. The Marquis of Aramis is the 18th or 19th of his line. Does that sound hereditary to you? Because it sure sounds hereditary to me.

The member worlds are free to govern themselves, just because it says the ruling noble, it does not say the noble rules those worlds, English is a funny language sometimes.

I haven't said the subsector duke rules the worlds personally; I say that he rules the subsector -- he guides the interstellar realtionships between member worlds, set foreign policy, command subsector forces, promulgates regulations for interstellar interactions -- in short, he rules the subsector.

And even if he was a complete figurehead, he would still, as a figurehead over 30 worlds, be socially superior to the world rulers with a consequent higher social standing.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I think you are confusing social standing with government position, it states directly though that precedence is based on position.

It isn't hereditary, it comes from the Emperor as the entry states, the "hereditary" part is mere convenience upon the Emperor's privilege.

 

[rancke]

I think you are confusing social standing with government position, it states directly though that precedence is based on position.

And that statement seems to contradict other parts of canon.

"Precedence is accorded strictly on the basis of government position, with seniority by date of patent following." [LDLZ:35]

I'm not sure exactly what that last quote means; it sounds like being a noble is considered a government position, though this would seem to contradict the rule that all Imperial nobles with the same title (whether they have a government function or not) have the same social standing.​

Perhaps the precedence being talked about is precedence between nobles with the same government position. That would make a subsector duke with a title created earlier precede a subsector duke with a title created later.

Hans

 

[Dragoner]

It means that you might be a duke, but another noble with position automatically outranks you and between those with position and equal rank, precedence is by seniority.

 

[rancke]

It means that you might be a duke, but another noble with position automatically outranks you and between those with position and equal rank, precedence is by seniority.

"...this would seem to contradict the rule that all Imperial nobles with the same title (whether they have a government function or not) have the same social standing."
​

Incidentally, what do you think 'precedence' means?


Hans

 

[Reban]

To me, this suggests that the choice to make C6 Nobility (Imperial or Planetary (really System-ary)), rather than just Soc or Cha or Cas, should be just that: a specific choice.

Thus, when I'm rolling up characters (which is one of the two games that comes in any RPG), which I do a lot, I'm going to actively choose when high Soc becomes Nobility. Systemically, IMO, only Referees and Players should have the authority to make that choice.

This is my position too. High Soc does not automatically equal a Noble Title. The fact that they are detailed on two separate tables in T5 lends weight to this.

You were going fine there, Your Grace till the Broadway Incident. Now, though we must resist!

No Broadway stays Broadway, I'm renaming Wall Street as a symbol of my economic control. How many acres is Manhattan anyway? I'm assuming its in my owned hex.

I think the "how powerful" is a faulty assumption as well; for example if you compared the commander of fort ben Harrison in Indy with the mayor, the commander might be "more powerful", but the reality is that if the commander somehow antagonized the mayor, it would be to his detriment as his commander would pull him from his command; part of his duties is to be a goodwill ambassador between the army and the city.

Same as with Imperial and planetary nobility, if one made a pareto chart of their spheres of influence, they might not even overlap, and just as likely an Imperial noble might be a poor cousin to a wealthy individual on a rich world.

This is a good explanation of my equal but different argument.


Two notes on the subsequent discussion.

Inheritance: Am I right in recalling that the method or mode of inheritance is usually written into the Patent of Nobility in the Imperium. Primogenature is only one possibility out of many in a diverse Imperium which also has to cater for nobles with relict clones or brains in a jar as well as the many family types).

Precedence: In terms of general nobility is about who gets to go first and has to be last and when things happen. It defines how "close to the throne" you can get. Precedence depends on many factors and circumstance. Precedence is not static.

In the Imperium it may be the mechanism used to normalize the order of precedence between Nobles and Nobles who are also Office Holders. If two Dukes are to be presented before the throne which goes first? The one with the more important office or the one with the more ancient title?

Rather than fight a duel outside the door, they find out how it was done when this question arose before. If there is no protocol an official decision must be made, there-by creating a precedent.

 

[Reban]

It means that you might be a duke, but another noble with position automatically outranks you and between those with position and equal rank, precedence is by seniority.

This is true but it is also situation dependent. Good examples include the Great Officers of State in the UK who you can read about here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Officers_of_State

In Traveller terms they have equivalents detailed in GT:N and could include heads of the various Ministries as well. Sector and Subsector Dukes are probably a rank lower and Archdukes would probably be Privy Councilors without an office but representing their domains.

And here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_precedence are various orders of precedence here on Earth with an interesting note as to how order of precedence can sometimes mean order of succession to office.

 

[curmudgeon]

[LDNZ:34]
[LDAM:7]
[LDLZ:35]

I may regret asking this, but could you identify what these acronyms stand for? I am at a bit of a loss here. I thought I knew most of the acronyms used in Traveller, but these are new to me.

 

[Reban]

I think it's:

Library Data N to Z
Library data A to M

But LDLZ stumps me. Haven't come across those acronyms before.

 

[Vladika]

I may regret asking this, but could you identify what these acronyms stand for? I am at a bit of a loss here. I thought I knew most of the acronyms used in Traveller, but these are new to me.

[LDNZ:34]
[LDAM:7]
[LDLZ:35]

LD = Library Date (LBB supplement) NZ = Alphabetical N through Z :34 = page number 34

AM = Alphabetical A through M

 

[rancke]

I should perhaps make it clear that I think of precedence as correlated with social standing, not rigidly linked. As such, I consider it evidence of relative social standing but not absolute proof.

In Traveller terms they have equivalents detailed in GT:N and could include heads of the various Ministries as well. Sector and Subsector Dukes are probably a rank lower and Archdukes would probably be Privy Councilors without an office but representing their domains.

Sector and subsector dukes are the same rank, but it would be reasonable to assume that sector dukes have higher precedence than subsector dukes.

Jon Zeigler seems to to have overlooked or perhaps given up on explaining the sentence about precedence being strictly based on government position. Noble precedence seems to be first by rank of title and then by date of creation of the title. The only link between noble rank and government office in GT:Nobles is a list of positions with the minimum ranks required to fill them.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

I'm thinking LDLZ is a typo.

This is my position too. High Soc does not automatically equal a Noble Title. The fact that they are detailed on two separate tables in T5 lends weight to this.



Two notes on the subsequent discussion.

Inheritance: Am I right in recalling that the method or mode of inheritance is usually written into the Patent of Nobility in the Imperium. Primogenature is only one possibility out of many in a diverse Imperium which also has to cater for nobles with relict clones or brains in a jar as well as the many family types).

Precedence: In terms of general nobility is about who gets to go first and has to be last and when things happen. It defines how "close to the throne" you can get. Precedence depends on many factors and circumstance. Precedence is not static.

In the Imperium it may be the mechanism used to normalize the order of precedence between Nobles and Nobles who are also Office Holders. If two Dukes are to be presented before the throne which goes first? The one with the more important office or the one with the more ancient title?

Rather than fight a duel outside the door, they find out how it was done when this question arose before. If there is no protocol an official decision must be made, there-by creating a precedent.

Soc is probably too confining to use for everything, certain concepts, such as precedence, are most likely more evolved. T5 does break soc out more; but I think the precedence is about not letting a duke with title but no position, be able to give orders to a count with position, and that the fief is different than one's area of responsibility. One thing that is apparent, is that soc actually doesn't equal position, and that there is significant social mobility over the old orders of terrestrial nobility

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Acres?

This is my position too. High Soc does not automatically equal a Noble Title. The fact that they are detailed on two separate tables in T5 lends weight to this.

That is the way I read it and run it too.

No Broadway stays Broadway, I'm renaming Wall Street as a symbol of my economic control. How many acres is Manhattan anyway? I'm assuming its in my owned hex.

Hmmm. Might have to talk to the Committee for Resistance to the Imperialist Agressors about that one. :devil:

The island is about 3 miles by 12 miles, so how ever many acres fit in that would be your number, but I never got acres so I have no idea how many that is. But you don't get Central Park or the UN. Might give you Roosevelt Island though.

[Then some snipping happened here.]

Inheritance: Am I right in recalling that the method or mode of inheritance is usually written into the Patent of Nobility in the Imperium. Primogenature is only one possibility out of many in a diverse Imperium which also has to cater for nobles with relict clones or brains in a jar as well as the many family types).

Not sure about that, but I think it depends on the family issued the Patent decides it does things. But I think the relict clone does not inherit without permission from the Imperium. Brains in jars might just keep them till the brain dies and then pass on as normal for that family.

Precedence: In terms of general nobility is about who gets to go first and has to be last and when things happen. It defines how "close to the throne" you can get. Precedence depends on many factors and circumstance. Precedence is not static.

In the Imperium it may be the mechanism used to normalize the order of precedence between Nobles and Nobles who are also Office Holders. If two Dukes are to be presented before the throne which goes first? The one with the more important office or the one with the more ancient title?

Rather than fight a duel outside the door, they find out how it was done when this question arose before. If there is no protocol an official decision must be made, there-by creating a precedent.

I go with the older title, mostly, unless the Office is particularly important to the functioning and continuance of the Imperium.

 

[rancke]

I'm thinking LDLZ is a typo.

It is. Sorry about that. I've corrected it now.


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

The island is about 3 miles by 12 miles, so how ever many acres fit in that would be your number, but I never got acres so I have no idea how many that is. But you don't get Central Park or the UN. Might give you Roosevelt Island though.

A square mile is 640 acres.