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How Politically Correct is your TU?

When you marry into the k'kree, the FAMILY look after you. For the rest of your life and beyond.

Remember that not all imperial servants are humans.

Aside - I strongly disagree about the "captains should marry" policy. Marraige is so heavily bound up with a particular world view - it can't be imperium wide.

Aside2: Minority - I suppose the relevant noble is going to judge noble heirs based upon their upbringing. So if they come from a society where adulthood is only awarded after you have raised a child to puberty, then they will only accept "heirs" who qualify.
 
Originally posted by The Mink:
When you marry into the k'kree, the FAMILY look after you. For the rest of your life and beyond.
Bit like the Sopranos or the Corleones. ;)
file_21.gif
 
IIRC, the saying inthe British army (in the days of the Raj) was Lieutenents can't marry, Captains may marry, majors must marry.

This was on the assumption that the army was all male and hetero, wives did not have a career, and the Colonel's wife was responsible for "administering" the dependents. It wasn't so much that being married was a prerequisite for promotion as being married to a capable, diplomatic, and responsible woman made you a better choice.

Think about "We Were Soldiers" where the Colonel's wife was involved in "group therapy sessions" for the younger wives and personnally brought around the Telegrams.

I fail to see how this would work in a society where women had their own careers, military personel were mixed sex and a variety of sexual arrangements were permitted.

(BTW, I am a little homophobic, so IMTU the issue of "alternate lifestyles" is seriously repressed as it has been in Western Europe for 24 1/2 of the last 25 centuries.)
 
Throwing hat into ring.
First here are a couple of references that do a good job of explaining the basic outline of sociobiology.

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/sociobiology.html
http://humanists.net/pdhutcheon/humanist%20articles/12

Second I need to add a little disclaimer, I am not telling anyone to change their belief on any particular aspect of RL, just that my take on life in the 56th century goes a little like this.
As technological change and revolution in all fields of human endeavor reduces the need for direct human muscle input into task completion, the number of professions and jobs open to women, the physically weaker sex in our bisexual species, will tend to increase.
Yes I know that there are individual women out there that can mop the floor with me at will, but they are the exception, not the rule. We are a sexually dimorphic species, women are evolutionarily favored for child bearing and rearing, men can love ‘em and leave ‘em; yet both are able to fulfill the reproductive portions of our sexual/genetic inheritance as bald monkeys.
This tends to keep women out of certain fields until TL 5-7, with a greater portion of women entering the work force, able to be away from child rearing, as technology and wealth become more and more communication and information processing based (third wave technologies) These technologies tend to favor the social skills which women excel at, with their higher threshold for aggression.
This means:
Imperial citizens from low TL planets will be socially more likely to be sexist, which is defining the appropriateness of a job based on the gender of the worker.
Imperial citizens from mid TL planets will be undergoing social change that loosens the definitions of job appropriateness based on gender.
Imperial citizens from high TL planets (the majority of the Hi TL, Hi Pop which form the backbone of Imperial Citizenry) will only define the appropriateness of a job based on gender in a very limited number of fields, mostly having to do with extreme physical effort.
A corollary of this is the acceptance of homosexuality in public social spheres. (It is, was, and will be with us as long as we are sexual beings) When reduced earning power and reproduction tie a woman to home, marriage and a spouse being necessary for support; the social norm will tend to promote heterosexual, monogamous or polygamous family units. It will also tend to abhor any deviation from the norm as being detrimental to successful reproduction (The main goal of any living species).
As women’s social mobility and earning power increase the need for a supporting spouse of the opposite sex will tend to decrease. This will not mean a rise in homosexuality as an expression of genetic propensity in the population, but that its social expression will deviate less from the norm and tend to be more socially acceptable.
There is also the genetic altruism of homosexuality argument that simply states that a homosexual man or woman who contributes to the survival of their genetic relatives is ultimately contributing to their own genetic survival, even if they do not reproduce.
When you throw in cloning and high tech jobs for women the social argument for monogamous relations for social support become much less persuasive. Mix in crèches and social support for working parents as well as high tech genetic engineering or surgery to create functional hermaphrodites and you have pretty much knocked the legs out of any sexism in regards to jobs with the above exception still relevant.
I think that the marines would still tend to be masculine arm, but any woman or herm that wanted to and could pass the physicals would be allowed to join. Most of the other fields would be wide open at high tech level.
My Traveller universe is not politically correct, it is technologically correct!
As usual YMMV.
 
Originally posted by The Mink:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by George Boyett:
Hispanic bountyhunters (Many groups said Jango Fett was portraying Hispanics bad, even though the actor was Maori IIRC)
The Fett's both had very strong Kiwi accents. I totally missed how they might have been considered hispanic. Is it because they don't have pale skin?</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't see the Fetts as portraying any specific Terran race/nationality personally. I just saw them as well...Jango Fett and his cloned son, Boba in Episode II.
 
Originally posted by lightsenshi:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BenBell:
What's Political Correctness? Oh that thing that allows people to discriminate against others legally.
And an excuse for bad behavior.</font>[/QUOTE]--------------------------------------------------
It also stifles dissension of anything that does not agree with it, censures, and pillories free thought.

amidst its other virtues...
heretically yours,
 
The Imperium may be cold, agnostic, etc... but it has to have some laws that it believes that run accross the board and it doesn't matter how long it takes them to spread out. The prohibition of slavery is one and there are probably others. Marriage, like it or not, from our experience on this planet has always and probably will always be a serious institution. It is not something that the imperium is just going to say "whatever" I would say that the 3I has some laws that allow certain privleges granted on one planet to be passed on to the next, such as marriage licenses. Just my thoughts and I don't feel like typing, so I will end here.
 
Politically Correct?

For a modern-day "Politically Correct" society to arise among the Imperial Elite, you need some flavour of collectivism ("The government is morally justified to tell you what you can do with your property"), as well as egalitarianism ("No one is better than anyone else!")

Both concepts runs strongly against the grain of a massive conservative institution, ruled by hereditary nobles - a nobility whose basis of power is primarily founded on property rights & military force, and secondarly based on historical tradition and family unity. This base of power is fairly fragile, compared to a racial, (mono)cultural, or religious base of power. [1]

I doubt that the Nobility would touch an ideology as deeply subversive to the foundations of their authority as Political Correctness. The logic of the ideal leads to the destruction of the Nobility itself.

(Counterpoint: historically, Nobles have done some really stupid things before, so they may well play with the idea. "Archduke Dulinor" comes to mind for some reason...)

And no, my own Traveller Imperium is not Politically Correct. Not in the slightest. Think "British/Roman Empire, with Jump Engines."
(A 'men-only' Imperial Military, anyone?)

*****

[1] (At one time the Imperial government was racially dominated by Solomani humans, and the interstellar culture at 600 seems much more united than at 1100... But the racial elitism came to an end - which benefited the Imperium in some ways, but divided the Imperium in others. And no culture stays united forever - not without Thought Police, anyways.)
 
Originally posted by Ranger:
I'd been more strict on the rules for matrimony and the military IMTU. I'd use the Roman army as a guide. IIRC the professional army started out prohibiting marrage completely for enlisted soldiers until retirement. This of course did not stop the soldiers from having relatinships and establishing families, but they had no legal standing and the government provided no support. If the legion got redeployed, it was up to the soldier to move his family at his own expense. Over time the syetem erroded due to soldier discontent over their families not having rights to inheirit if the soldier died on campaign amoung other things. It took a long time for soldiers to gain the right to get married, and only when recruitment became problematic and the government had to make concessions to keep manpower levels up.
_________________________________________________
Author's Pournelle, and Drake draw heavily upon the Roman model in Their universes in Sci Fi. I took it a step further. Good model to use, but not verbatim-fere the reasons the system broke down fer the Romans.
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I would prohibit marrage for enlisted in any Imperial service, but not local armies or navies. Considering that those entering Imperial service are getting a once in a lifetime opportunity to get a foot in the door of interstellar society. I'd allow officers to get married because the Imperium is not a classless society and RHIP is alive and well.

Letting anyone get married though opens up a host of issues. First, the cost of moving families if a ship or unit is redeployed. Another is what happens if a service member is KIA weeks or months from home port, does the surviving spouse owe all that pay back to the service? Not allowing marrage also eliminates the need for an expense Servicemembers Group Life Insurance program.

Just my thoughts,

Rob
-------------------------------------------------
Hmmm, no Imperial SGLI, huh? Nope, ya gotta have benefits fer those who serve (pay and prestige are okay, but Joe likes his fringe benefits pacckage as well), and retention/ recruitment, etc would suffer.
NOW, the colonial thing being dictated by local custom-hey, no problems there.(When in Rome..)
 
Originally posted by The Mink:
When you marry into the k'kree, the FAMILY look after you. For the rest of your life and beyond.
_________________________________________________
I concur with the above.
_________________________________________________

Aside - I strongly disagree about the "captains should marry" policy. Marraige is so heavily bound up with a particular world view - it can't be imperium wide.
________________________________________________
Back on topic: I disagree, cordially. thats why I implement it IMTU only, and on this very page of the same name(grins)!
________________________________________________

Aside2: Minority - I suppose the relevant noble is going to judge noble heirs based upon their upbringing. So if they come from a society where adulthood is only awarded after you have raised a child to puberty, then they will only accept "heirs" who qualify.
-------------------------------------------------
Be it yours, adopted, or cloned as we have seen in the OTU, agreed!
 
Originally posted by Ran Malia:
Marriage, like it or not, from our experience on this planet has always and probably will always be a serious institution. It is not something that the imperium is just going to say "whatever"...
I think a reasonable way to think about this is to say that, on the one hand, nobles are to live according to a relatively strict code of behaviour and that, even if that conflicts with local customs, that nobles are still expected to behave according to Imperial custom. Think of Archduke Dulinor, not practicing the religion of his own people.

Or, from a more adventersome perspective, think about what this means for heirs to Imperial noble titles running away to marry according to "local" custom (the custom they would have been exposed to, some of them) rather than according to arranged marriages of political necessity.

Again, I think the Imperial nobility - and the interstellar society - behaves according to a limited number of codes of behavior but, IMTU, if you take out those citizens who join the Imperial Armed Forces, 95%+ of the population will live and die in their own system, never going through jumpspace... so they behavior under much more parochialally.
 
Originally posted by Ran Malia:
The Imperium may be cold, agnostic, etc... but it has to have some laws that it believes that run accross the board and it doesn't matter how long it takes them to spread out. The prohibition of slavery is one and there are probably others. Marriage, like it or not, from our experience on this planet has always and probably will always be a serious institution. It is not something that the imperium is just going to say "whatever" I would say that the 3I has some laws that allow certain privleges granted on one planet to be passed on to the next, such as marriage licenses.
_________________________________________________
Agreed. The Imperium has to have some absolutes regarding the myriad societies/ religions, and types of marriages, as well as its prohibition versus slavery.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
IIRC, the saying inthe British army (in the days of the Raj) was Lieutenents can't marry, Captains may marry, majors must marry.

This was on the assumption that the army was all male and hetero, wives did not have a career, and the Colonel's wife was responsible for "administering" the dependents. It wasn't so much that being married was a prerequisite for promotion as being married to a capable, diplomatic, and responsible woman made you a better choice.

Think about "We Were Soldiers" where the Colonel's wife was involved in "group therapy sessions" for the younger wives and personnally brought around the Telegrams.

I fail to see how this would work in a society where women had their own careers, military personel were mixed sex and a variety of sexual arrangements were permitted.

________________________________________________
Well, for one, the Skipper wouldnae be runnin about Like CPT James T Kirk (ahem) in "Zeus-mode" bein married n all. Second, the Skipper wouldnae be allowed to be runnin about with subordinates (bein married n all), nor abusin em (in a sexual harassment way).

(BTW, I am a little homophobic, so IMTU the issue of "alternate lifestyles" is seriously repressed as it has been in Western Europe for 24 1/2 of the last 25 centuries.)
_________________________________________________
Thats fine. That's yer TU. Thanx fer bein honest, your Excellency! ;)
 
Originally posted by Father Fletch:
Throwing hat into ring.
First here are a couple of references that do a good job of explaining the basic outline of sociobiology.

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/sociobiology.html
http://humanists.net/pdhutcheon/humanist%20articles/12

Second I need to add a little disclaimer, I am not telling anyone to change their belief on any particular aspect of RL, just that my take on life in the 56th century goes a little like this.
As technological change and revolution in all fields of human endeavor reduces the need for direct human muscle input into task completion, the number of professions and jobs open to women, the physically weaker sex in our bisexual species, will tend to increase.
Yes I know that there are individual women out there that can mop the floor with me at will, but they are the exception, not the rule. We are a sexually dimorphic species, women are evolutionarily favored for child bearing and rearing, men can love ‘em and leave ‘em; yet both are able to fulfill the reproductive portions of our sexual/genetic inheritance as bald monkeys.
This tends to keep women out of certain fields until TL 5-7, with a greater portion of women entering the work force, able to be away from child rearing, as technology and wealth become more and more communication and information processing based (third wave technologies) These technologies tend to favor the social skills which women excel at, with their higher threshold for aggression.

This means:
Imperial citizens from low TL planets will be socially more likely to be sexist, which is defining the appropriateness of a job based on the gender of the worker.

Imperial citizens from mid TL planets will be undergoing social change that loosens the definitions of job appropriateness based on gender.

Imperial citizens from high TL planets (the majority of the Hi TL, Hi Pop which form the backbone of Imperial Citizenry) will only define the appropriateness of a job based on gender in a very limited number of fields, mostly having to do with extreme physical effort.

A corollary of this is the acceptance of homosexuality in public social spheres. (It is, was, and will be with us as long as we are sexual beings) When reduced earning power and reproduction tie a woman to home, marriage and a spouse being necessary for support; the social norm will tend to promote heterosexual, monogamous or polygamous family units. It will also tend to abhor any deviation from the norm as being detrimental to successful reproduction (The main goal of any living species).

________________________________________________
Tracking thus far, Padre...
_________________________________________________
As women’s social mobility and earning power increase the need for a supporting spouse of the opposite sex will tend to decrease. This will not mean a rise in homosexuality as an expression of genetic propensity in the population, but that its social expression will deviate less from the norm and tend to be more socially acceptable.

There is also the genetic altruism of homosexuality argument that simply states that a homosexual man or woman who contributes to the survival of their genetic relatives is ultimately contributing to their own genetic survival, even if they do not reproduce.
When you throw in cloning and high tech jobs for women the social argument for monogamous relations for social support become much less persuasive. Mix in crèches and social support for working parents as well as high tech genetic engineering or surgery to create functional hermaphrodites and you have pretty much knocked the legs out of any sexism in regards to jobs with the above exception still relevant.

I think that the marines would still tend to be masculine arm, but any woman or herm that wanted to and could pass the physicals would be allowed to join. Most of the other fields would be wide open at high tech level.
My Traveller universe is not politically correct, it is technologically correct!
As usual YMMV.
________________________________________________
excellent work again Padre Fletch! (kudos!--<bows>). Thanx fer weighing in!
 
Originally posted by Rodina:
I think a reasonable way to think about this is to say that, on the one hand, nobles are to live according to a relatively strict code of behaviour and that, even if that conflicts with local customs, that nobles are still expected to behave according to Imperial custom. Think of Archduke Dulinor, not practicing the religion of his own people.
_______________________________________________
Excellent example Rodina!
_______________________________________________
Or, from a more adventersome perspective, think about what this means for heirs to Imperial noble titles running away to marry according to "local" custom (the custom they would have been exposed to, some of them) rather than according to arranged marriages of political necessity.

Again, I think the Imperial nobility - and the interstellar society - behaves according to a limited number of codes of behavior but, IMTU, if you take out those citizens who join the Imperial Armed Forces, 95%+ of the population will live and die in their own system, never going through jumpspace... so they behavior under much more parochially.
_______________________________________________
Superb condensation of points/ counter points Rodina! Thanx fer weighing in! ;)
:cool:
 
This is an interesting topic... wish I'd followed it more closely.

Forgive me if I go over old territory a little, but my take on this is that the 3I would have a sort of two-tier structure.

At the top would be those who are in direct service to the Imperium: ie the hereditary nobles, the military, the bureaucracy. They would be required to follow strict Imperial laws and customs as representatives of the Emperor.

The second tier would be everybody else, subject to local laws and customs, since many of them would only be dimly aware of the Imperium anyway. Only those living close to a good starport, preferably one with a military presence, would actually have any contact with the Imperium in any appreciable manner.
In modern terms think of them as tribesmen living in the Amazon jungle who see an outsider about once a year. How aware would they be of the existence and function of the UN?
This would likely be particularly true on low tech backwater worlds.

So the upper tier has to follow Imperial rules, which grant equality to all sophonts (hence the non-standardised colours of the Imperial flag because not all creatures see the same wavelengths), and wouldn't discriminate against the sexes (there have been Empresses, who probably wouldn't stand for such discrimination for long). Failure to follow the laws of the Imperium would result in loss of priveledges such as military rank and noble titles.
The lower tier would live under the laws and customs of their own world, which may reflect Imperial values, but may be skewed to reflect local conditions (marriage customs could likely be somewhat different on a world where the population was low and mostly male than those on a world where women outnumber men by three to one - to give an extreme example).
Variations in local conditions would make it difficult to impose a single Imperium-wide code of law. On some worlds stealing a bottle of water would be a serious crime, on others it would scarcely even be noticed.

IMTU: The Imperium rules space. Worlds largely rule themselves. As long as they pay their taxes and don't make trouble, nobody in the Imperial government really cares what individual worlds do.
 
Originally posted by BigBadRon:
This is an interesting topic... wish I'd followed it more closely.

_____________________________________
Thank you Ron, I try to pose some head scratchers-- I really do ;)
___________________________________________
Forgive me if I go over old territory a little, but my take on this is that the 3I would have a sort of two-tier structure.

At the top would be those who are in direct service to the Imperium: ie the hereditary nobles, the military, the bureaucracy. They would be required to follow strict Imperial laws and customs as representatives of the Emperor.

The second tier would be everybody else, subject to local laws and customs, since many of them would only be dimly aware of the Imperium anyway. Only those living close to a good starport, preferably one with a military presence, would actually have any contact with the Imperium in any appreciable manner.
In modern terms think of them as tribesmen living in the Amazon jungle who see an outsider about once a year. How aware would they be of the existence and function of the UN?
This would likely be particularly true on low tech backwater worlds.

So the upper tier has to follow Imperial rules, which grant equality to all sophonts (hence the non-standardised colours of the Imperial flag because not all creatures see the same wavelengths), and wouldn't discriminate against the sexes (there have been Empresses, who probably wouldn't stand for such discrimination for long). Failure to follow the laws of the Imperium would result in loss of priveledges such as military rank and noble titles.
The lower tier would live under the laws and customs of their own world, which may reflect Imperial values, but may be skewed to reflect local conditions (marriage customs could likely be somewhat different on a world where the population was low and mostly male than those on a world where women outnumber men by three to one - to give an extreme example).
Variations in local conditions would make it difficult to impose a single Imperium-wide code of law. On some worlds stealing a bottle of water would be a serious crime, on others it would scarcely even be noticed.

IMTU: The Imperium rules space. Worlds largely rule themselves. As long as they pay their taxes and don't make trouble, nobody in the Imperial government really cares what individual worlds do.
_________________________________________________
I take it then that Imperial law also extends to the starports themselves (extrality zones), but not beyond it (local law resumes control), IYTU.
 
Being that the Imperium is mostly in the business of making money and maintaining order, it would probably see "political correctness" or any other form of cultural imposition as:
1) amusing, if it is being imposed due to some form of 'guilt' based on pretty much anything short of genocide resulting one of many reasons.
2) A threat since some damned fool is trying to stir things up and make people unsettled. And that sort of thing will not do to keep social stability. I mean look what happened with the Terrans and the Ramshackle Empire? This is what we get for listening to those people.

As far as PC'ness is going, something which people probably haven't considered is you tend to end up with some fairly homogenous populations on various planetary colonies. As a result, then need for social enginnering tends to usually be fairly low, excepting on large pop worlds.
I tend to imagine that most majority planets tend to tolerate smaller groups out of A) curiosity or B) suppress them ruthlessly becuase they're a pack of whiny bastards or they're being an irritant in some manner.
By in large, the Empire wants stability, and will do what is nessasary to maintain it. The Pax Imperia will be maintained at all costs.
toast.gif
 
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