The discussion of a post-apocalyptic setting set 300 years in the future on this thread has raised the question of how many technological items (machinery, tools, vehicles, weapons, fuel, conserved food etc) from the pre-war world would survive through the 300 years of intervening chaos. Similarly, assuming a particular item (say, a PGMP-14, a very good salvage item due to its per-unit price and relatively small value) wasn't damaged by the Viral takeover/collapse of a world in the OTU, what chances are for it to survive the 118 years between the Collapse and the 1248 milieu?
How long would the gear survive?
- Thread starter Golan2072
- Start date
It's going to depend heavily on the materials used to construct it and on storage conditions.
If it was packed in a container with an inert gas it might just need servicing to be useable. If it was buried in the collapse of a building (for example) any number of things could happen to it. Corrosion is possible (assuming the alloys used to build it can corrode). If parts of it are sealed and the seals fail, damage could be severe. If stored in vacuum, vacuum welding could cause moving parts (if any) to seize.
There are any number of variables.
It might be best to create a salvage roll and modify it for environmental factors.
If it was packed in a container with an inert gas it might just need servicing to be useable. If it was buried in the collapse of a building (for example) any number of things could happen to it. Corrosion is possible (assuming the alloys used to build it can corrode). If parts of it are sealed and the seals fail, damage could be severe. If stored in vacuum, vacuum welding could cause moving parts (if any) to seize.
There are any number of variables.
It might be best to create a salvage roll and modify it for environmental factors.
epicenter00
SOC-13
Thematically, I've found that Traveller is big on stuff being preserved for far longer that I would think realistic. People salvaging RFX guns from destroyed Trepida tanks on habitable worlds after 70 years and so on.
There's a few culprits for this kind of stuff but it mostly revolves around access to oxygen and energy. Extremes of temperatures are obviously bad for equipment unless it was designed for it, but just as bad are seasonal or even daily temperature variances over a long period of time - all that thermal expansion and contraction will take its toll, multipled over long years.
Using your example of a PGMP-14, if a trooper carrying it is on a temperate habitable world and he gets cacked and drops it in the underbrush, I'd say there's no chance of it being in working condition (let alone the fact that I'd find it unlikely that nobody else would pick it up in the meanwhile). If it was kept in an underground bunker in a locker, it might survive a bit better. Like a bunker on a world with low humidity away deep in the stone? It might still be in workable condition.
On the other hand, stuff can survive in places where it seems singularly unlikely, like saltwater immersion for centuries - like if the gun is buried in oxygen-poor sediments in cold water, it might be in surprisingly good shape (perhaps not firable but certainly not a complete loss).
If you're looking to add a bit of 'flavor' to salvaging weapons and such, I'd break a PGMP into, say, three components grouped by fragility. These can be particular "vulernable" spots. Like one would be the weapon 'overall' (everything not covered by anyhting else). The second might be magneto-optic array and ammunition. The third would be "the PFC44 Plasma Focusing Array, a notoriously finicky item on the otherwise very solid standard PGMP-14s - of all relic plasma guns its been found that PFC44 failure is responsible for a full 60% of the unfirable weapons in the hands of TEDs and their troops (and was part that required precision computer-controlled machining tooled for micron tolerances). While in 1108 there was a redesign of the part to the PFC44-1108 standard which was much simplier and reliable, retooling and introduction of the new coupling was slow and most units not part of the Household Cavalry or those in Iliesh only had spotty access to the new parts."
EDIT: I guess I should finish this post.
The thought would be after you break the item down into three component areas, make checks for failures from the "top down." If you fail one roll, don't go on to the next. So if you fail on the first roll, the gun is a total loss for whatever reason, be it rusted, partially/totally bent/twisted/melted, a home for a thriving colony of insects and molds, or whatever. If you fail the second roll, the weapon would be unusable (but could be returned to service) and/or could be used to scavenge spare parts and some of the ammunition might still be good. With the third, the weapon is basically servicable, but you'd have to replace the particular finicky part. If you make all three rolls, the weapon is perfectly fine.
There's a few culprits for this kind of stuff but it mostly revolves around access to oxygen and energy. Extremes of temperatures are obviously bad for equipment unless it was designed for it, but just as bad are seasonal or even daily temperature variances over a long period of time - all that thermal expansion and contraction will take its toll, multipled over long years.
Using your example of a PGMP-14, if a trooper carrying it is on a temperate habitable world and he gets cacked and drops it in the underbrush, I'd say there's no chance of it being in working condition (let alone the fact that I'd find it unlikely that nobody else would pick it up in the meanwhile). If it was kept in an underground bunker in a locker, it might survive a bit better. Like a bunker on a world with low humidity away deep in the stone? It might still be in workable condition.
On the other hand, stuff can survive in places where it seems singularly unlikely, like saltwater immersion for centuries - like if the gun is buried in oxygen-poor sediments in cold water, it might be in surprisingly good shape (perhaps not firable but certainly not a complete loss).
If you're looking to add a bit of 'flavor' to salvaging weapons and such, I'd break a PGMP into, say, three components grouped by fragility. These can be particular "vulernable" spots. Like one would be the weapon 'overall' (everything not covered by anyhting else). The second might be magneto-optic array and ammunition. The third would be "the PFC44 Plasma Focusing Array, a notoriously finicky item on the otherwise very solid standard PGMP-14s - of all relic plasma guns its been found that PFC44 failure is responsible for a full 60% of the unfirable weapons in the hands of TEDs and their troops (and was part that required precision computer-controlled machining tooled for micron tolerances). While in 1108 there was a redesign of the part to the PFC44-1108 standard which was much simplier and reliable, retooling and introduction of the new coupling was slow and most units not part of the Household Cavalry or those in Iliesh only had spotty access to the new parts."
EDIT: I guess I should finish this post.
The thought would be after you break the item down into three component areas, make checks for failures from the "top down." If you fail one roll, don't go on to the next. So if you fail on the first roll, the gun is a total loss for whatever reason, be it rusted, partially/totally bent/twisted/melted, a home for a thriving colony of insects and molds, or whatever. If you fail the second roll, the weapon would be unusable (but could be returned to service) and/or could be used to scavenge spare parts and some of the ammunition might still be good. With the third, the weapon is basically servicable, but you'd have to replace the particular finicky part. If you make all three rolls, the weapon is perfectly fine.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Forgive my ignorance, but what is vacuum welding and how does it work?
I could be displaying my ignorance here as well, but I think vacuum welding is where you have air pressure on one side and a vacuum on the other. A piece of metal placed over a hole will be held on by air pressure alone if there is a vacuum on the other side. Not sure how this would cause moving parts to cease though
One could do some comparative work in looking at how well stuff on earth from the 1700s and earlier has survived. You would need something with moving parts - perhaps antique clocks and watches?
Also antique guns as well, muskets and the like, I guess. But as Piper said in his post there are so many variables.
Ravs
Also antique guns as well, muskets and the like, I guess. But as Piper said in his post there are so many variables.
Ravs
Scott Martin
SOC-13
Clean (unoxidized) metals in a vaccum can bond to one another, forming a weld without needing to be heated.
Scott Martin
epicenter00
SOC-13
Vaccum welding is, in a not-totally-scientific nutshell, a function of stuff like osmosis and such.
What happens is that stuff like metal plates (for instance - I'm told it can happen with other materials as well) can be pretty easily designed to slide apart on Earth - we design stuff like this all the time because we take it for granted - like door hinges, access panels, mechanical locking mechanisms, gears, etc.
These parts slide apart reasonably easily because atmospheric gas permeates everything and a thin lubercation of gas molecules exist between the plates of metal (say in a door hinge).
In vaccum, these gas molecules follow the laws of physics and go to where there's less density of them (into the vaccum). The effect is that this thin lubricating layer of gas molecules go away and the metal parts are, for all intents and purposes, permanently welded together.
You can avoid this from occuring by remembering to factor in actual lubricants that will continue to work in a vaccum into the design of the item. It's just that if an item is expected to be used in an atmosphere all the time or designed for only short jaunts into vaccum (say a PGMP), may not be designed this way.
What happens is that stuff like metal plates (for instance - I'm told it can happen with other materials as well) can be pretty easily designed to slide apart on Earth - we design stuff like this all the time because we take it for granted - like door hinges, access panels, mechanical locking mechanisms, gears, etc.
These parts slide apart reasonably easily because atmospheric gas permeates everything and a thin lubercation of gas molecules exist between the plates of metal (say in a door hinge).
In vaccum, these gas molecules follow the laws of physics and go to where there's less density of them (into the vaccum). The effect is that this thin lubricating layer of gas molecules go away and the metal parts are, for all intents and purposes, permanently welded together.
You can avoid this from occuring by remembering to factor in actual lubricants that will continue to work in a vaccum into the design of the item. It's just that if an item is expected to be used in an atmosphere all the time or designed for only short jaunts into vaccum (say a PGMP), may not be designed this way.
This site covers some WW2 relic recovery efforts. While not really appropriate to the question at hand, it does give some idea of the type of equipment one might find and the varying effects of aging. The amount of restoration work done on some of the vehicles is amazing.
This site has similar types of photos from the Pacific.
My thought was more along the lines of the what I've seen with some miltary caches - the guns are covered in grease for protection. A lot of cleaning is needed to get them servicable again - but no rust and they'll keep for a long time. I was wondering if the same type of cache would work for asteroid storage or if vacuum welding would be an issue.
To add to the vacuum welding discussion..
From working in a semi-conductor fabrication plant that uses very low pressure vacuum systems I learned a little bit about lubricants and vacuum.
It seems most real world lubricants that we use are restrictive in their temperature ranges.
And to get a lubricant that does not sublime away at ultra low temp is a very tricky thing.
The semi-conductor industry has developed a special kind of oil. (I think petroleum based, but it might have been vegetable based too. It was long ago, and I did not know the exact details even then). Not specifically as a lubricant, but to spray into a chamber to attract the last bits of gasses and transport them out of the chamber.
The difficulty was that only this special oil would not boil away and become gaseous at those extremely low pressures.
A side effect was it was extremely volatile and flashed and burnt if heated even the least little bit at higher pressures. If the machine was still hot and the pressure can up even a little bit the oil immediately burnt on contact with those hot surfaces.
It seems we handled it at room temperature, but at literally thousands of dollars a liquid ounce, it use was VERY limited.
Now project out wonderful new lubricants, Graphite based, silicon, nylon or possibly other specialized long chain polymers, and they would likely have much better resistance to vacuum.
Also while metal might vacuum weld in a short time, metals in close contact also tend to leach into each other also forming bonds that can seize at contact surfaces. There also galvanic reactions that bond and weaken surfaces where two metals contact. Alloys are designed specifically to fight these effects, and with increased materials science at higher tech levels, again these effects will be mitigated, but who knows what the limits are.
So ultimately there is room to hand wave depending on physical limits of the ability to minimize these effects, but by a mid level tech level, I would personally expect that coatings and lubricants and base materials would all be at or near the theoretical limits.
I would even say, with the rate our material science is advancing, and the exotic materials we commonly accept in Traveller, that by tech level 10 or so, a properly packaged item would stay in functional condition indefinably.
Power packs would decay.
As a matter of fact, any thing requiring power would be unusable after a time in storage, unless you had the technology to recharge it.
That plasma gun would be a real problem if you did mot have access to a strong enough generator to recharge it in a reasonable time.
Sorry I have never played in that setting so I just don’t know is power is common or limited.
From working in a semi-conductor fabrication plant that uses very low pressure vacuum systems I learned a little bit about lubricants and vacuum.
It seems most real world lubricants that we use are restrictive in their temperature ranges.
And to get a lubricant that does not sublime away at ultra low temp is a very tricky thing.
The semi-conductor industry has developed a special kind of oil. (I think petroleum based, but it might have been vegetable based too. It was long ago, and I did not know the exact details even then). Not specifically as a lubricant, but to spray into a chamber to attract the last bits of gasses and transport them out of the chamber.
The difficulty was that only this special oil would not boil away and become gaseous at those extremely low pressures.
A side effect was it was extremely volatile and flashed and burnt if heated even the least little bit at higher pressures. If the machine was still hot and the pressure can up even a little bit the oil immediately burnt on contact with those hot surfaces.
It seems we handled it at room temperature, but at literally thousands of dollars a liquid ounce, it use was VERY limited.
Now project out wonderful new lubricants, Graphite based, silicon, nylon or possibly other specialized long chain polymers, and they would likely have much better resistance to vacuum.
Also while metal might vacuum weld in a short time, metals in close contact also tend to leach into each other also forming bonds that can seize at contact surfaces. There also galvanic reactions that bond and weaken surfaces where two metals contact. Alloys are designed specifically to fight these effects, and with increased materials science at higher tech levels, again these effects will be mitigated, but who knows what the limits are.
So ultimately there is room to hand wave depending on physical limits of the ability to minimize these effects, but by a mid level tech level, I would personally expect that coatings and lubricants and base materials would all be at or near the theoretical limits.
I would even say, with the rate our material science is advancing, and the exotic materials we commonly accept in Traveller, that by tech level 10 or so, a properly packaged item would stay in functional condition indefinably.
Power packs would decay.
As a matter of fact, any thing requiring power would be unusable after a time in storage, unless you had the technology to recharge it.
That plasma gun would be a real problem if you did mot have access to a strong enough generator to recharge it in a reasonable time.
Sorry I have never played in that setting so I just don’t know is power is common or limited.
Arthur Denger
SOC-12
I spent many years in the Air Force working with and storing munitions. A major part of the job was corrosion control (rust removal) on bombs and munitions containers.
Common things found:
Corrosion from exposure to the elements, water, salt, heat, sand, chemicals
Rodents chewing through nonmetal container parts, leaving droppings and urine to cause corrosion or direct damage
Sand scratching of sensors
Electronics failures from temperature variations and corrosion
Rubber seals dryrotted or improperly applied
Rough handling from training use
Manufacturing defects
Overage chemical propellants
Age and use can cause chemicals to become unstable.
Vibration from handling can cause chemicals to separate out in cartriges.
I have seen;
Flares initiate burning during buildup because of manufacturing defects.
Aircraft cannon shells detonate in the feed chute.
Bomb fuzes broken in half during buildup, no detonation involved
Hydraulic lines blow out while lifting munitions, several times
Common things found:
Corrosion from exposure to the elements, water, salt, heat, sand, chemicals
Rodents chewing through nonmetal container parts, leaving droppings and urine to cause corrosion or direct damage
Sand scratching of sensors
Electronics failures from temperature variations and corrosion
Rubber seals dryrotted or improperly applied
Rough handling from training use
Manufacturing defects
Overage chemical propellants
Age and use can cause chemicals to become unstable.
Vibration from handling can cause chemicals to separate out in cartriges.
I have seen;
Flares initiate burning during buildup because of manufacturing defects.
Aircraft cannon shells detonate in the feed chute.
Bomb fuzes broken in half during buildup, no detonation involved
Hydraulic lines blow out while lifting munitions, several times
Failures to be expected in weapons and ammunition over long periods of storage by storage conditions. `
Percentages; add 1 per 10 years subtract and 1 per TL over 7.
Unprotected in humid or corrosive areas dropped on the ground: 90% probable
Fully corroded
Leaking toxic chemicals
Will detonate if it functions at all
Some protection in humid or corrosive areas, in containers: 50% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Ideal protection in humid or corrosive areas, in containers: 25% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Unprotected in arid areas, dropped on the ground: 75% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Some protection in arid areas, in containers: 25% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Ideal protection in arid areas, in containers: 10% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Percentages; add 1 per 10 years subtract and 1 per TL over 7.
Unprotected in humid or corrosive areas dropped on the ground: 90% probable
Fully corroded
Leaking toxic chemicals
Will detonate if it functions at all
Some protection in humid or corrosive areas, in containers: 50% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Ideal protection in humid or corrosive areas, in containers: 25% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Unprotected in arid areas, dropped on the ground: 75% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Some protection in arid areas, in containers: 25% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Ideal protection in arid areas, in containers: 10% probable
Corroded metal
Seals decayed
Electronics decayed
Optics out of alignment
Optics fogged
Power cells corroded, decayed, drained
Chemical propellants weakened, separated out, or gone serpentine, i.e. fast detonation instead of a controlled burn bursting the firearm
Vegascat, I like the direction you're going to - chances of corrosion based on environment and storage conditions. I have, however, two comments/questions about this:
1) Are the percentile probabilities for any failure at all to occur or are they the chances for each of the listed malfuntions for each environment to occur?
2) I'd reduce the chances by 5% per TL over 7 rather than by 1%. High-tech storage and lubrication techniques, as well as materials science, would probably be far better at fighting corrosion than current techniques. And, even at TL15, you'll get a 50% chance for failure in a dropped weapon in a humid area.
3) Could a well-built and well-sealed armory be considered an arid area even in a humid area? How difficult would it be to seal an armory (or storehouse) from humidity?
1) Are the percentile probabilities for any failure at all to occur or are they the chances for each of the listed malfuntions for each environment to occur?
2) I'd reduce the chances by 5% per TL over 7 rather than by 1%. High-tech storage and lubrication techniques, as well as materials science, would probably be far better at fighting corrosion than current techniques. And, even at TL15, you'll get a 50% chance for failure in a dropped weapon in a humid area.
3) Could a well-built and well-sealed armory be considered an arid area even in a humid area? How difficult would it be to seal an armory (or storehouse) from humidity?
epicenter00
SOC-13
Just to play Devil's Advocate, I wouldn't increase it much beyond 1%. The higher TLs go in Traveller, the less actual difference between it and the TL preceeding it. TLs beyond like 10, besides the introduction of various 'nerdgasm' technologies (anti-grav, magic thruster plates, jump drives, ray guns that will let nerds get dates with supermodels, etc.) - TLs are like a 20 year difference from the TL preceeding (besides the infamous computer tech, where Traveller already lags behind what we have now). I seriously don't think a FGMP that was a battlefield discard in a swamp should have only a 50% chance of failure after being left in a swamp for upwards of a century. This idea that in the future, devices will become more durable and longer-lasting is a cherished institution in sci-fi, but it's just not bearing out if you look at almost any technological device we have today - it's an antiquated idea from like 1950s sci-fi.
We've had automobiles for almost a century now, with many refinements and improvements to their fittings and workings and I don't think I could drive any 2007 model car into a swamp and hope to have it in running condition in a century, let alone 50 years. Indeed, I think a car made in the 1960s or something has a better chance of remaining in running condition longer than 2007, and certainly easier to restore to running condition.
Don't forget that even though TLs might increase, this stuff is still probably made by the lowest bidder and corners are cut reduce costs (no matter what MWM might claim in T4 - surely as a cost-reduction measure such edicts might be ... repealed by "a future Emperor").
Arthur Denger
SOC-12
