mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Nuclear missiles should be able to destroy a ship - a contact detonated nuke or better yet a nuke that explodes inside the target ship is going to have a lot more energy than a meson gun or particle accelerator spinal.
High Guard 1.5 (<1979 edition)
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
I’m thinking about Agent of the Imperium.
One scene was where two tigresses were in orbit. One was “taken over”, and was attempting to bring its spine to bear.
Presumably if it managed to do so, the target would be in trouble. But, the text also noted that some crits are better than others... e.g. power plant. I’ll have to re-read.
The other scene was when the capital fleet appeared on coronation day. One capital annihilated one smaller ship handily and without fuss. I can’t remember what that target was — bigger than an escort?
One scene was where two tigresses were in orbit. One was “taken over”, and was attempting to bring its spine to bear.
Presumably if it managed to do so, the target would be in trouble. But, the text also noted that some crits are better than others... e.g. power plant. I’ll have to re-read.
The other scene was when the capital fleet appeared on coronation day. One capital annihilated one smaller ship handily and without fuss. I can’t remember what that target was — bigger than an escort?
Second reference:
“The spinal meson gun fired and [fast cruiser] Emesh exploded.” AOTI p126.
Rule 2. Ships go boom.
Scene: a capital meson spine causes a "ship explodes" result against a cruiser.
Interpretation:
"Sufficiently large" spines can annihilate "rather large" ships.
Say this Fast Cruiser is 50,000 tons. In HG1.5 that's a size "P".
The attacking capital is 100,000 tons in volume (AOTI p126). It is no stretch to say it is probably a Spine "T".
Note there was no mention of the cruiser's screens being up. Yet this was a hostile situation. What does this mean?
Thus AD's suggestion that a spine can simply blow up a target if its rating exceeds the target's hull code.
“The spinal meson gun fired and [fast cruiser] Emesh exploded.” AOTI p126.
Rule 2. Ships go boom.
Scene: a capital meson spine causes a "ship explodes" result against a cruiser.
Interpretation:
"Sufficiently large" spines can annihilate "rather large" ships.
Say this Fast Cruiser is 50,000 tons. In HG1.5 that's a size "P".
The attacking capital is 100,000 tons in volume (AOTI p126). It is no stretch to say it is probably a Spine "T".
Note there was no mention of the cruiser's screens being up. Yet this was a hostile situation. What does this mean?
Thus AD's suggestion that a spine can simply blow up a target if its rating exceeds the target's hull code.
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First reference.
Their burst of strange particles reached us just as we fired: carefully chosen to ignore most matter; carefully timed to degrade into energetic bursts once they had passed through our armor. They rocked our interior. I felt vibrations through my feet. Visuals and audibles across the bridge signaled damage. I heard a comment that our jump drives were shredded. If we didn’t win this battle, that would be the least of our worries.
“Meson screen up!”
In a mirror image of us, our particles hit Intrepid. “Their maneuver drives are out.” I wished it had been their main gun.
AOTI p152
Rule 1: Spines do crits.
Scene: two capitals hit with their spines. Each do a crit.
Interpretation:
If the spine isn't greater than the hull code, then it's "just" a crit.
Their burst of strange particles reached us just as we fired: carefully chosen to ignore most matter; carefully timed to degrade into energetic bursts once they had passed through our armor. They rocked our interior. I felt vibrations through my feet. Visuals and audibles across the bridge signaled damage. I heard a comment that our jump drives were shredded. If we didn’t win this battle, that would be the least of our worries.
“Meson screen up!”
In a mirror image of us, our particles hit Intrepid. “Their maneuver drives are out.” I wished it had been their main gun.
AOTI p152
Rule 1: Spines do crits.
Scene: two capitals hit with their spines. Each do a crit.
Interpretation:
If the spine isn't greater than the hull code, then it's "just" a crit.
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Bonus material, same page:
Sensors were being raked with petabytes of data—viruses, trojans, phages, worms, and propaganda—and overload bursts. Coded comm channels were trying to take over or shut down vital ship functions.
Intrepid was enveloped in a preemptive cloud of anti-beam sand crystals. The battle commander gave orders for the same from Courageous.
Rule 3. Data warfare is always present and can shut you down.
Rule 4. Even capitals like sandcasters.
Scene: Two capital ships are about to slug it out.
Interpretation:
1. It's more important to score a crit than to run. Running is too big a risk.
2. There is always time to deploy sand.
3. Sensor warfare is just a given. There's no orders to fire or retaliate; it just is always there. If your ship is unguarded, viruses can take every part of a ship out of action.
Sensors were being raked with petabytes of data—viruses, trojans, phages, worms, and propaganda—and overload bursts. Coded comm channels were trying to take over or shut down vital ship functions.
Intrepid was enveloped in a preemptive cloud of anti-beam sand crystals. The battle commander gave orders for the same from Courageous.
Rule 3. Data warfare is always present and can shut you down.
Rule 4. Even capitals like sandcasters.
Scene: Two capital ships are about to slug it out.
Interpretation:
1. It's more important to score a crit than to run. Running is too big a risk.
2. There is always time to deploy sand.
3. Sensor warfare is just a given. There's no orders to fire or retaliate; it just is always there. If your ship is unguarded, viruses can take every part of a ship out of action.
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Conclusions
Say we pit a Kokirrak against a Nolikian. Both fire at the same time; maybe both score a hit.
If they both hit, the Nolikian inflicts a crit on the Kokirrak -- something important has been toasted. However, the Nolikian explodes.
Say the Kokirrak misses. It's got something dead. 16% chance it's the spine. On the average, it can survive three hits before the spine is Out Of Commission, so the Kokirrak gets at least 2 chances to kill the Nolikian dead.
Note that one critical hit is "computer destroyed." This is why we use the computer difference as a DM: the computer can be damaged or destroyed. If the Kokirrak's computer is destroyed, it's in serious trouble.
- A ship is destroyed when it is hit by a weapon with a code greater than its hull code.
- Spine hits that do not immediately destroy, go straight to the crit table.
- It seems like the "glass canon" strategy would work, and yet it shouldn't.
- A Nolikian (size L) would be especially vulnerable to spines MNPQRST.
Say we pit a Kokirrak against a Nolikian. Both fire at the same time; maybe both score a hit.
If they both hit, the Nolikian inflicts a crit on the Kokirrak -- something important has been toasted. However, the Nolikian explodes.
Say the Kokirrak misses. It's got something dead. 16% chance it's the spine. On the average, it can survive three hits before the spine is Out Of Commission, so the Kokirrak gets at least 2 chances to kill the Nolikian dead.
Note that one critical hit is "computer destroyed." This is why we use the computer difference as a DM: the computer can be damaged or destroyed. If the Kokirrak's computer is destroyed, it's in serious trouble.
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Computers are cheap for capital ships. If we need it, we will have spares.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
There is something in AotI about having to lower your meson screen to fire a meson gun...
Silverhawk
SOC-12
Well that would make sense. Probably should be the same for Nuclear Dampers and particle accelerators since the dampening field alters nuclear forces.
Particle Accelerators have usually been described as neutral-hydrogen beams (protons accelerated electromagnetically, passing through an electron cloud as they exit the barrel). A Nuclear Damper would not affect this. But certain types of potentially more exotic particle accelerator systems might be affected, depending on their nature.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Also the nuclear damper is not a 'bubble'. You have to focus two projectors - at least according to LBB:4 and Striker. A ship mounted damper is likely to consist of multiple projector pairs, separated by as much ship length as you can manage.
And Marc has reaffirmed it for BCS combat as a weak point for meson spines. The first guy to fire his T Meson hands an advantage to the other guy to fire his T Meson. And so ships like the Lightning-class cruisers can keep their meson screens up all the time, and fire their PA spine.
And Marc had reaffirmed that in T5, but may have changed his mind...
Yes, found it. The Old Master Text says
But by T5.09 we have the modern text
One possible reason for this is hinted at in the 2018 Big Black Book:
The "Option: Directed" is in T5 Book 2. It's noted on page 178, but there's no description of any options are or require. It's in the BBB though.
It is possible that only the Meson Screen is intended to be Directed, and that by default. If that is so, then T5 Book 1-2-3 are a further development of thought beyond the BBB. But it's also quite possible that the options were just not included in the text.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The rule in HG79 is that if the firing ship has its black globe on at any time during the turn it is at -5 to penetrate defences.
A similar rule for meson screens would be -5 to penetrate with meson guns if the attacker has had its meson screen on during the turn - so to get effective meson fire you must drop your screen.
A similar rule for meson screens would be -5 to penetrate with meson guns if the attacker has had its meson screen on during the turn - so to get effective meson fire you must drop your screen.
That said, as a game mechanic it seems to operate as one. The damper affects all incoming nuclear missiles, rather than being used in batteries like lasers. Whereas during gameplay you can saturate defensive laser fire, you can not, apparently, saturate the nuclear damper.
Right, and with T5, the damper is further nuanced. Because some of the screens appear to share underlying "theory", the nuclear damper is a proper screen, which means one node indeed projects a bubble.
The nuance comes in when your ship is designed to screen other ships from incoming attacks. In this case, presumably, the ship needs two (or more) screens in order to direct its field to cover other ships.
That appears to be intention, anyhow.
I need to ask Marc.
An implication is that there is no "reserve".
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Going by the energy input and their size in HG80 there are likely to be at least ten projector pairs per damper installation on a ship. This allows them to affect hundreds of individual warheads. It would help explain how some missiles get through.
But this is a silly idea.
Sorry, it's a silly idea.
The idea of any ship "covering" for another is pretty absurd, unless the ships are literally right on top of each other. But then, that starts to get silly too.
Let's just take the two fleets, put all of the ships within, say, 10's of kilometers from each other, and then have them conduct combat with ranges in the 10's of thousand of kilometers.
Mind, this is perceptively exactly what HG does, and it's another reason HG is the pinnacle of open space combat systems because it just handwaves away all the nonsense about maneuver. Why bother? Why bother indeed. Why split your forces, make them weaker. Who would do that?
If that's the doctrine, then that's the doctrine. If that's what works, then there ya go. In most traveler boardgame ship combat, it actually DOES work that way. Concentrate the fleet, wire them all to the Big Button that says "FIRE", and fly it as a single unit, taking out chunks of the enemy "single unit".
Just not interesting gameplay.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
A screening ship as Rob puts it is a ship specifically designed to mitigate the incoming threat. to the ships it is screening.
1. It extends sensor range
2, It can act as forward observer for smallcraft and missiles
3 It can use its active defences to take out as much of the adversary ordnance heading to the screened ships. it effectively gives you another layer of screens.
1. It extends sensor range
2, It can act as forward observer for smallcraft and missiles
3 It can use its active defences to take out as much of the adversary ordnance heading to the screened ships. it effectively gives you another layer of screens.
