Heya-minor

[rancke]

According to GT:Star Mercs (p. 93-95), Heya (B687745-5, Spinward Marches 2204) has a habitable moon called Heya-minor, a world with substantial forest cover, with a diameter of 3000 miles and a standard atmosphere. It is very lightly settled because of the uncomfortably low gravity, but a number of mines and other resource extraction operations exist. Some of these are owned by various Imperial corporations under licence. Sternmetal Horizons, Oberlindes Lines, and SuSAG are all represented. [Heya-minor is] considerably less well defended than Heya itself. At one point, a band of Vargr corsairs jump in, fight off the defenders of Heya-minor and land troops. They then wait too long to retrieve their troops and are driven off by SDBs from Heya.

My question is, how far is Heay-minor from Heya? It is sufficiently far away from Heya that the Vargr raiders thought they had a good chance of jumping in, moving to Heya-minor, send down troops, loot, and get away again before SDBs from Heya itself could arrive (in the event, they didn't, but they must have thought they had a shot). That implies a travel distance of quite a few hours. Would any moon be that far away from its world?

Timetable:

A minus 1 hour        First Vargr raider arrive at Heya-minor's jump limit.
                      [I'm assuming they've performed a coordinated jump and
                      that they weren't unlucky enough to have any of their
                      ships arrive more than an hour early.]

A minus 40 minutes    SDBs from Heya [1st Squadron] beging moving at 4G.

A                     Enough raiders have arrived to outnumber the SDBs
                      stationed at Heya-minor [2nd Squadron]; they form
                      up, and begin moving in at 4G.

A plus 2 hours        Corsairs engage and defeat/chase off 2nd Squadron.

A plus 3 hours        Corsair ground troops hit the surface of Heya-minor.

A plus 7 hours        Corsairs had planned to begin extracting their troops.
                      [Just a guess. Does it sound reasonable?]

That gives 1st Squadron 8 hours to get there. At 4G that's how far? Even assuming mid-point turnaround and decelleration?

Comments?


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Hans,

There's a reason why GT:Star Mercs is the worst received and reviewed G:T book after Bounty Hunters and the Heya Minor Campaign is part of that reason.

Eight hours at 4 gees, with a turn around, is roughly 7.5 million kilometers. Putting that in perspective, Luna is "only" 400,000 kilometers from Earth.

I'll also point out that, while Heya Minor's low gravity is used as an excuse to explain that moon's sparse population, the same low gravity field never figures in the three mercenary scenarios which follow.

Forget about trying to make the Heya Campaign "work" as it's as flawed as the Kinunir Warrant story.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

There's a reason why GT:Star Mercs is the worst received and reviewed G:T book after Bounty Hunters and the Heya Minor Campaign is part of that reason.

No doubt, but so what? We still have a canonical mention of Heya's moon Heya-minor.

Eight hours at 4 gees, with a turn around, is roughly 7.5 million kilometers. Putting that in perspective, Luna is "only" 400,000 kilometers from Earth.

Yes, that's a long, long way. Is it too long for Heya-minor to orbit Heya? And if it is, is there an alternate possibility? Sharing the same orbit somehow?

I'll also point out that, while Heya Minor's low gravity is used as an excuse to explain that moon's sparse population, the same low gravity field never figures in the three mercenary scenarios which follow.

Is there anything in the scenarios that indicate that the gravity isn't low?

Forget about trying to make the Heya Campaign "work" as it's as flawed as the Kinunir Warrant story.

Hey, I've been working on making the Kinunir warrant story work.

I'm not trying to make the Heya Campaign work. I'm trying to make Heya-minor work (for a writeup of Heya in 1105, but I think you'll agree that if Heya-minor is there in 1120, it would have been there in 1105).


Hans


PS. Bill, I lost your e-mail address in the computer crash I told you about. Could you let me know where to PM you directly, as using the CotI and SJG boards' PM features is too clumsy for my taste.

 

[Andrew M]

You could put Heya into a Trojan orbit. That would increase the distances pretty significantly.

 

[robject]

You could put Heya into a Trojan orbit. That would increase the distances pretty significantly.

Exactly my thoughts.

 

[Whipsnade]

We still have a canonical mention of Heya's moon Heya-minor.

Hans,

And we still have a canonical mention of jump torpedoes in two different products.

You know full well there's canon and then there's canon.

Is it too long for Heya-minor to orbit Heya?

Is slightly more than 0.05 AU too large a radius for a moon's orbit? Yes. It wouldn't be too much even if Heya was a gas giant, but Heya is an inhabited planet.

And if it is, is there an alternate possibility? Sharing the same orbit somehow?

Heya Minor occupying a Trojan point in Heya's orbit does not work given the system's primary's habitable zone. In this case, the rougly 0.05 AU distance quoted is far enough for a "moon" which is 60 degrees "ahead" or "behind" Heya in it's orbit.

Heya Minor and Heya both being gas giant moons sort of works, but the distance between the two would vary widely and that never occurs in the campaign.

Seriously, this has all been hashed out on these very forums, not to mention the TML and SJGames. Heya Minor does not work within the descriptions provided.

Is there anything in the scenarios that indicate that the gravity isn't low?

After stating that the moon is sparsely inhabited because of the deleterious effects of low gravity, the scenarios then ignore the effects that low gravity would have on the troops physically, on their movements, and on their weapons. The moon's gravity is used as an one-time excuse and then completely ignored.

Hey, I've been working on making the Kinunir warrant story work.

You've been working for over a decade now and your conclusion still remains that it doesn't work. The Kinunir Warrant cannot be the Norris/FFW Warrant. There's no way to make the timing work without twisting canon like a pretzel.

I'm not trying to make the Heya Campaign work. I'm trying to make Heya-minor work...

The Heya Campaign doesn't work because, among other things, Heya-Minor doesn't work. When the actual astronomical body the fighting takes place on cannot exist where the write-up claims it exists, the scenarios do not work.

... but I think you'll agree that if Heya-minor is there in 1120, it would have been there in 1105.

I do not agree that the Heya-Minor described in Star Mercs was there in 1120 because it cannot exist as described. The Heya-Minor described in Star Mercs doesn't exist in 1120, 1105, -300,000, or any other time period you care to name.

Could Heya have a moon? Certainly. Can Heya have the moon described in Star Mercs? Hell no.

Heya-Minor does not work.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Zutroi]

Not a trojan point, but possibly a lagrange...

Now, how would something the size of a moon end up in a lagrange point???

 

[aramis]

The problem with a lagrange point, Zutroi, is that it's a location for a 3rd body in a 3 body setup.

A moon can't be in a lagrange point unless there is a larger moon.

LaGrange's points 1-5 are in relation to big body (World), small body (moon), and items in the point (tiny bodies).

Trojan points are the EXACT same relationship:big body (Star), small body (World), and items in the point (smaller than world).

Axiomatically, then, the Leading Trojan Point or the Trailing Trojan Point are the most likely spots. And that's quite a way.

 

[rancke]

Axiomatically, then, the Leading Trojan Point or the Trailing Trojan Point are the most likely spots. And that's quite a way.

It's not a problem if it takes longer than 8 hours for SDBs to get from Heya to Heya-minor (unless we're talking many days). The Vargr would leave their troops to plunder until the last possible moment (or until there was nothing more left to plunder), then mess up the extraction. Whether they leave them for 8 hours or 48 hours makes little difference to the story.

But would a size 6 world be able to hold a size 3 world in its trojan point? I'm woefully ignorant of celestial mechanics, but somehow I suspect not.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Heya Minor occupying a Trojan point in Heya's orbit does not work given the system's primary's habitable zone. In this case, the rougly 0.05 AU distance quoted is far enough for a "moon" which is 60 degrees "ahead" or "behind" Heya in it's orbit.

I don't understand. The first sentence says it doesn't work. The second sentence implies that it fits perfectly. (The trojan points are 60 degrees ahead and behind a world, right?)

Heya Minor and Heya both being gas giant moons sort of works, but the distance between the two would vary widely and that never occurs in the campaign.

There is no mention of the distance varying widely, but then, there's only one mention of the distance, and that only by implication..

After stating that the moon is sparsely inhabited because of the deleterious effects of low gravity, the scenarios then ignore the effects that low gravity would have on the troops physically, on their movements, and on their weapons. The moon's gravity is used as an one-time excuse and then completely ignored.

True. "Bad author! No bisquit!"

You've been working for over a decade now and your conclusion still remains that it doesn't work. The Kinunir Warrant cannot be the Norris/FFW Warrant. There's no way to make the timing work without twisting canon like a pretzel.

I've never even tried to make the Kinunir warrant indetical with Norris' warrant. The bit I've been trying to get to work is the existence of a double-blank warrant aboard a tiny insignificant patrol ship. And I think I've made a breakthrough recently.

The Heya Campaign doesn't work because, among other things, Heya-Minor doesn't work. When the actual astronomical body the fighting takes place on cannot exist where the write-up claims it exists, the scenarios do not work.

At the moment I don't give a toss for the Heya Campaign. At the moment all I care about is getting Heya-minor to work. If doing so saves the Heya Campaign too, so much the better, but it's not the objective.

I do not agree that the Heya-Minor described in Star Mercs was there in 1120 because it cannot exist as described. The Heya-Minor described in Star Mercs doesn't exist in 1120, 1105, -300,000, or any other time period you care to name.

Could Heya have a moon? Certainly. Can Heya have the moon described in Star Mercs? Hell no.

Are you saying that even if we decide to ignore the implications of the text in Star Mercs and put it in a reasonable distance from Heya, it still wouldn't work? What's the problem? Size 6 worlds can't have size 3 moons?


Hans

 

[rancke]

A bit of googling put me across the existence of co-orbital bodies. Sadly, it appears to be no help when it comes to explaining Heya-minor, because the orbit would put it much closer and much farther from the sun much of the time, but it's such a fascinating phenomenon that I thought I'd share with you.

EDIT: Spoke too soon. The example I stumbled across (Cruithne) wouldn't work, but the example of the moons Epimetheus and Janus orbiting Saturn in practically the same orbit seems to indicate that a similar arrangement should work for Heya and Heya-minor.

"Janus and Epimetheus are co-orbital: Janus' mean orbital radius from Saturn is currently only 50 km less than that of Epimetheus. This is smaller than either moon's diameter. Since closer orbits have higher velocities, the two moons must inevitably approach each other, and it would seem at first glance that a collision would be inevitable. But as the inner moon catches up with the outer moon their mutual gravitational attraction boosts the inner moon's momentum and raises its orbit, causing it to slow down. At the same time, the outer moon equally loses momentum and drops into a lower orbit. The moons thus "trade" orbits and begin to move apart again, since the forward moon is now in the lower, faster orbit. The nearest they ever approach is some 10,000 km. The exchange takes place about once every four years; the last close approach was on 21 January 2006,[1] the next will be in 2010. At that time, Janus' orbital radius will increase by ~20 km, while Epimetheus' decreases by ~80 km; Janus' orbit is less affected because it is 4 times more massive than Epimetheus." [Co-orbital moon]​

If Heya and Heya-minor are co-orbital worlds, they can be up to half their orbit apart (I think) and both will stay in the life zone all the time. True, calling Heya-minor a moon of Heya would be a misnomer, but just the kind of misnomer laymen are prone to employ. In any case it would be a very minor difference.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

I don't understand.

Hans,

There is no understanding to be had because what I wrote was gibberish. I was hurried and it had been a long day riding herd on a particularly idiotic group of skimmers.

What I wanted to say was: We know the size of Heya's primary star, so we know that star's Habitable Zone, so we know Heya's orbit, so we know the distance to Heya-Primary Trojan points.

Those Trojan points are too far away for Heya-Minor travel times cited in Star Mercs to work.

I've never even tried to make the Kinunir warrant indetical with Norris' warrant.

It doesn't matter what you tried, the man who created and owns the game says the warrants are the same. Any excuses you come up with are besides the point.

At the moment I don't give a toss for the Heya Campaign.

You should because the Heya Campaign is the only mention of Heya-Minor in canon and, if the campaign is shit, what does that say about the existence of the moon?

Are you saying that even if we decide to ignore the implications of the text in Star Mercs and put it in a reasonable distance from Heya, it still wouldn't work?

The astronomy would work but the campaign wouldn't.

Remember your question from your first post in this thread?

"My question is, how far is Heay-minor from Heya? It is sufficiently far away from Heya that the Vargr raiders thought they had a good chance of jumping in, moving to Heya-minor, send down troops, loot, and get away again before SDBs from Heya itself could arrive (in the event, they didn't, but they must have thought they had a shot). That implies a travel distance of quite a few hours. Would any moon be that far away from its world?"

The distance between Heya-Minor and Heya is what "allows" the raiders to take a chance in the first place. If we move Heya-Minor to an orbit around Heya that works, the moon will be far closer to the planet and the raiders will never risk it.

Make the moon work and the raid doesn't. Make the raid work and the moon doesn't.

What's the problem? Size 6 worlds can't have size 3 moons?

Heya can have a moon or moons. Heya can have a size 3 moon. Heya cannot have a size 3 moon at the distance Star Mercs claims it does.

Prior to Star Mercs, Heya had a Schrodinger Moon. The moon both existed and didn't exist at the same time. Nothing in canon said it was there and nothing in canon said it wasn't there either.

The Star Mercs authors opened the box in which this Schrodinger moon was kept to see whether the moon existed or not. They reported the moon does exists but several things make their observations very questionable. First, they reported a moon of a certain size and a certain distance from Heya, but the size makes that distance impossible. Next, they reported activities on the moon which ignore the physical nature of the moon. Last, they reported activities within the Heyan system, a Vargr corsair raid involving plundering ground troops, which are wholly implausible given that in their own previous work on Heya, Behind the Claw they state an IN cruiser squadron was in orbit around the planet to prevent just such a raid.

Because so much of the story is either impossible or implausible, I'm perfectly happy in throwing the whole mess out.

If you want to give Heya a moon, even a habitable moon, please go right ahead. But for the game's sake don't repeat the utter nonsense presented in Star Mercs. Do something different, do something that works.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

What I wanted to say was: We know the size of Heya's primary star, so we know that star's Habitable Zone, so we know Heya's orbit, so we know the distance to Heya-Primary Trojan points.

Those Trojan points are too far away for Heya-Minor travel times cited in Star Mercs to work.

There are no travel times cited in Star Mercs. None. There is one implied, but it is based on various assumptions that may not be valid.

For instance, I'm assuming the corsairs assumed that the SDBs around Heya would react practically instantaneously (in my guesstimate I allowed them 20 minutes to start moving). For all we know, the corsairs thought they would stay to guard Heya, or at least waste hours before they got their act together.

I'm also assuming that Heya's SDBs are capable of the standard military 4G. Maybe they invested in a cheaper variety with only 3G.

You should because the Heya Campaign is the only mention of Heya-Minor in canon and, if the campaign is shit, what does that say about the existence of the moon?

Absolutely nothing. I like to examine dross for gold and silver nuggets before I discard it. The value of the dross doesn't affect the value of the nuggets.

The distance between Heya-Minor and Heya is what "allows" the raiders to take a chance in the first place. If we move Heya-Minor to an orbit around Heya that works, the moon will be far closer to the planet and the raiders will never risk it.

What is the farthest possible orbit for a moon around Heya?

The Star Mercs authors opened the box in which this Schrodinger moon was kept to see whether the moon existed or not. They reported the moon does exists but several things make their observations very questionable. First, they reported a moon of a certain size and a certain distance from Heya, but the size makes that distance impossible.

The report states the size of the moon. No mention whatsoever of the distance.

Next, they reported activities on the moon which ignore the physical nature of the moon.

This is the low gravity you're referring to, right? Have you read the text recently? It simply doesn't mention the low gravity as a factor (Which is bad writing, but does follow the tradition of every previously published mercenary ticket (No, I haven't checked if any of those tickets were for worlds with low or high gravity)). As far as I can judge none of the activities described are impossible under low gravity. I'm admittedly fairly ignorant on the subject of military operations in low gravity.

Last, they reported activities within the Heyan system, a Vargr corsair raid involving plundering ground troops, which are wholly implausible given that in their own previous work on Heya, Behind the Claw they state an IN cruiser squadron was in orbit around the planet to prevent just such a raid.

"Usually an Imperial cruiser squadron is stationed in the system to provide added security. Recently the squadron was temporarily removed for reasons never explained to the Heyans. Three weeks later a squadron of Vargr corsairs struck." [SM:93]​

That's enough time for a lurking scout (or opportunistic rift trader) to jump to a nearby corsair base, organize a raid, and jump to Heya. There are several known corsair bases within range of Heya. And that's not counting the secret ones.

If you want to give Heya a moon, even a habitable moon, please go right ahead. But for the game's sake don't repeat the utter nonsense presented in Star Mercs. Do something different, do something that works.

That's why I started this thread in the first place. Otherwise I could just have quoted three sentences from Star Mercs and been done with it.

I'm glad I did, BTW. Otherwise I wouldn't have googled up the existence of co-orbital bodies. The universe is just so much stranger than we can imagine.


Hans

 

[Andrew M]

What is the farthest possible orbit for a moon around Heya?

That would be the Hill radius (or a third to a half of that to be sure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hill_sphere. In this case the limit would be about 100,000km.

The maths behind the Lagrange points (including the Trojans) assumes the third body has negligible mass. Plunging through unreliable sources got me to someone stating somewhere that the Trojan points are stable for larger bodies. This makes sense to me given the symmetry.

By the way, there is a white dwarf in the sytem that could be put in the habitable zone, and have planets orbiting really close. The trouble is, the main sequence would have been in the way as it evolved through it's giant phase, and any planets would have been fried when it went supernova.

I'm glad I did, BTW. Otherwise I wouldn't have googled up the existence of co-orbital bodies. The universe is just so much stranger than we can imagine.

It get's pretty funky don't it?

 

[Andrew M]

If you want to test out your orbits you could try this.

 

[aramis]

If you want to test out your orbits you could try this.

Does this one have the sequential calculation error?

 

[Andrew M]

It's a numerical simulation so inevitably it will introduce errors. It does seem to be fairly robust for close passes between planets. It is simple enough to run fast with a reasonable time step. I have a simple 3 body problem that is doing 10 orbits per second (100 time-steps per orbit) without anything noticably silly going on.