Heros in the Columbia

[vegascat]

The question has been asked, what are the crew of the Columbia?
Are they heros, victims, or martyrs?

We live in the age of the Anti hero. Think about it. Who are the kids of today emulating? What examples are the children actually following? Who gets face time on the evening news or has their own show? How many people can name any of the last five soldiers to be awarded the Medal of Honor?

What is the difference between heros, victims, and martyrs?
A Hero does what has to be done, for others, without regard to the risk.
A Victim is done to, with no choice involving risk.
A Martyr places themselfs at risk, knowing death is the probable outcome, to accomplish their aims.

Everyone who has flown in a shuttle knows they are riding a column of fire knowing they have a good chance to survive. Their goal is to advance mankind.
The firefighters in the WTC on 9-11 di not know they were not going going home that day, but knew death was a possibility. Their goal was to save others.
Soldiers in combat know others are actively trying to kill them. Their goal is to stay alive and keep the people back home safe.
The people in the WTC on 9-11 didn't know the airliners were going change their lives. Some chose to help others get out. Others chose to help themselfs.
Some people try to change the way things are by straping on a bomb to kill others because they believe they have no other choice.
What about the poor wage slave who works a mindnumbing job to support some children, knowing his personal dreams will never be fulfilled?

Would you call the Columbia crew victims, martyrs, or heros?

We have enough Howard Sterns, Anna Nicole Smiths, Timothy McVeys and Monicas.

What we need are a few more like:

Rick D Husband, Col
William C McCool, Lt Col
Michael P Anderson, Lt Col
Kalpana C Chawla, PHD
David M. Brown, Commander
Laurel Clark
Ilan Ramon, Col

They knew what happened with the Challenger, and having a few more good examples for the kids to follow can't hurt.


Time to let someone else up on the soapbox.

 

[Jame]

Yes. I agree. "Heroes" comes closest to describing the Columbia crew - they could not have been either victims, since they were active, or martyrs, because they would rather have lived. What more can be said right now?

 

[vegascat]

Much more can be said. They must not be allowed to be the last. For the space program to halt would make their sacrifice for nothing. Now it is time to have our say with our congressmen.

 

[Jame]

Actually, you're right. Sometime this week I'll start writing a letter to both senators and my district's rep, and modify that letter to the First Lady.

Always keep in mind that if god doesn't want us to do it, then we have no choice but to do it.

 

[WyldRage]

Miners, in a coal mine, going to work day after day because someone has to dig up that coal. If they suffered a cave-in, would you call them heroes? What about fishermen in a rogue storm? Or what about the pilots of an airline flight, crashing because of an electronic glitch?

If you call the Astronauts of the Columbia heroes, you would have to call all the others heroes. But those are victims of the risk inherent to their jobs.

How about the other space pioneers? The astronauts who went in flights before the accident, and those who will go after the accidents. Are they less than the astronauts of the Columbia because they survived?

 

[RabidVargr]

Originally posted by WyldRage:
Miners, in a coal mine, going to work day after day because someone has to dig up that coal. If they suffered a cave-in, would you call them heroes? What about fishermen in a rogue storm? Or what about the pilots of an airline flight, crashing because of an electronic glitch?

Everyone is a hero to someone, be it a 5 year old daughter looking after her dad as he drives out to that coal mine, or the man who gives a homeless person money for a warm meal.

Astronauts are a special category, as they are explorers, the tip of the iceberg, they lead the way, much as the scouts in the old west blazed a *Safe(r)* path for the pilgrims that followed trustingly. The test pilot who tests the next generation aircraft that will carry your family safe and sound in the next decade also are hero's. They stand out because they do great good for the greatest amount of people.

The Coal Miner is still a hero though, as he makes it possible for his family to survive and thrive.

RV

 

[WyldRage]

To use the term hero subjectively is, in my humble opinion, inaccurate in this context. The main character in a movie is, for the viewers, a "hero", but, objectively, would you call a hero a character which is nothing but an image on a screen?

Heroes are defined by their actions, outside of any family, personnal or national ties. Subjectively, Al-Qaeda members have Bin Laden for their hero, but objectively, he is just a murderer. To judge a person through the ties he has is wrong for those who have no ties to him, thus we must judge only their actions.

Now, the question is: Is space exploration heroic? It is very commendable, but not heroic. Thus, except if someone can tell us what actions they have done that were heroic, we can't call them heroes.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by WyldRage:
Now, the question is: Is space exploration heroic? It is very commendable, but not heroic. Thus, except if someone can tell us what actions they have done that were heroic, we can't call them heroes.

They climbed into a spacecraft they they knew had a decent chance of killing them, not their own personal gain but to achieve something for the rest of the world. That in itself is heroic, in my book.

 

[manley_t]

You know what amazes me is that peole will actually work to devalue those that served and died and argue semantics in an attempt to thwart those that wish to give the honor that is due.

Okay -- for the those that decide of their own limited intellect to devalue the term -- here is the official defintion:

Hero
4 definitions
1-In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

2-A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

3-A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine.

4-The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.

Is this a flame? No, it's not a flame. It is an insult? Only to those morons that wish to devaule the lives of those brave astronauts that not only died; but that take flight on a pillar of fire every launch.

What fills me with pride is to see normal people guarding the debris from the ghoulish looters that would take it and try to sell it on ebay.

Yes, these people are Heroes in every sense of the word:
Rick D Husband, Col
William C McCool, Lt Col
Michael P Anderson, Lt Col
Kalpana C Chawla, PHD
David M. Brown, Commander
Laurel Clark
Ilan Ramon, Col

They and their families paid the ultimate price for their efforts to drag this species from the quagmire of ignorance, superstiion and petty squabbles that keep us barely above the animal.

Yes, they are heroes and I say be damned to anyone that says different.

One man being a hero does not demean another. In fact it enhances and works to rise all of us up to a higher station of being. So honor them and give them praise.

 

[WyldRage]

By saying they are heroes, you do devalue other persons. All the other Astronauts, who have also risked the hazard of space travel, but who came back alive. Are their contributions less because of their survival? Have they risked less than the crew of the Columbia?

Because this is what you are implying.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by WyldRage:
By saying they are heroes, you do devalue other persons. All the other Astronauts, who have also risked the hazard of space travel, but who came back alive. Are their contributions less because of their survival? Have they risked less than the crew of the Columbia?

Because this is what you are implying.

Here's an interesting observation from Andy Rooney (not usually one of my favorite people) that illuminates my thinking.

"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery."

The crew of Columbia should remind us of the heroism of all those other brave men and women who have flown into space and those who will fly there in the future. I regard them as heros too, even if they come home safe, and even if no one even notices what they do. When flying into space is as safe as driving to the corner store, then astronauts will stop being heroes to me. Not until then.

 

[WyldRage]

Originally posted by Tom Schoene:
Here's an interesting observation from Andy Rooney (not usually one of my favorite people) that illuminates my thinking.

"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing special about bravery."

The crew of Columbia should remind us of the heroism of all those other brave men and women who have flown into space and those who will fly there in the future. I regard them as heros too, even if they come home safe, and even if no one even notices what they do. When flying into space is as safe as driving to the corner store, then astronauts will stop being heroes to me. Not until then.

Although I may not share your opinion, I must say that I respect it. It is not in my intention to devalue astronauts, living or dead, in fact I admire them. They are pioneers, explorers and travellers. They push back humanity's frontiers and their contributions are forgotten too often. They are great men and women who accept the risks for a chance to sail in the sea of stars.

I must say, however, that to be a pioneer and to be a hero are two different things. Astronauts contribute great things to the rest of humanity and push back our limits. Does this make them heros or pioneers?

It is my opinion that a man or woman can do great things without being called a hero.

 

[Jame]

My opinion states: any great _Person_ (note the word use) can be a hero, even through being a professional.

 

[cgriffen]

Fortunately for humanity there will always be those who are willing to lay their lives on the line for a cause like the exploration of space. The extension of humanity to the stars.

I admire them and grieve their loss. These intrepid explorers were made of special stuff that most of us can only aspire to be.

 

[vegascat]

It is my opinion that a man or woman can do great things without being called a hero.

It seems this has turned into a definition of what is a hero.

What does it take to be considered a hero?
What is the minimum to be considered?
Do you have to risk your life?
Would a body part be sufficient?
What would have to be accomplished to be considered?
Is there a minimum for number of people affected?
What other criterea must be considered to be defined as a hero?

The next questions are to ask yourself.
What would it take to make you risk your life?
For what would you have others risk their lives for you?

 

[orion_blastar]

Originally posted by vegascat:
The question has been asked, what are the crew of the Columbia?
Are they heros, victims, or martyrs?

A little bit of all three. Ever notice that in Traveller that there are hardly ever any ship malfunctions re-entering the planets? I wonder what they use for the heat sheild? Maybe some sort of force shield that absorbs the heat, or maybe better ceramic tile?

Anyway they are heros, because they reached for the stars, and went out on a mission that cost them their lives.

They are victims, because something went wrong and it killed them. They could do nothing about it. Couldn't even get to an escape pod in time.

They are martyrs, because they died for a cause. That cause was to get into space and help develop the space program with the experiments they ran. Lucky for us the data was sent electronically after the experiments were done. So their voyage and crash was not in vain. So they did their jobs the best way they could, but they died anyway.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Heroes, martyrs, or victims?

Thats a perspective viewpoint we all must make.

Depends on your viewpoint, really.

For those looking to point blame and fingerpoint at the tragedy, and what may have gone wrong..they will be seen as "victims" of NASA, and its policies.

For those keeping score in the body count of lives lost to gain what is ours, the stars we inherited from the creator, martyrs.

But to dare and risk all, for the benefit of many, knowing riding an essentailly controlled explosion to the heaven's of orbit over us, they will always be heroes.

A *victim* has no choice to his/her fate, usually.
A *martyr* knows he/she will die, and does so to further an aim or cause thru death.
A *hero* is a label/appellation we give those, like challenger, like columbia's crewmen, who knew there were risks-but acceptable ones, and went anyway.

They themselves would not take on the mantle-that is for us, the living, in awe of their accomplishemnts to render. Perhaps this is a balck and white painting of things, But I dinnae see parsing it to no end otherwise.

I uphold they were heroes, first last and always.