Greek City-State Model for Alternate Setting

[horatio_hex]

I thought about the basis of an alternate setting for Traveller. Instead of using Rome as the model, why not use the greek City-States ? I guess it would involve a single specie (e.g. humans), lot of pocket empires, a common language and a limited aera of space as the "playground".

Comments ?

 

[trader jim]

OUTSTANDING IDEA!!!!....I am trying to put togather a campaign using materials i got on E-BAY. old history books, old maps of greece, eventring to put togather a "geek" uniform.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
Wouldn't that be the reformation (small but numerous states all waring with each other.
Or the pre 3rd Empire Expansionistic Empire model.
Or the 2300 lets get the universe style.
Or pocket empires.
Or Vargr space normaly.
Bye.

 

[mike wightman]

Are you going to have a Persian Empire next door neighbour?

 

[horatio_hex]

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Hello.
Wouldn't that be the reformation (small but numerous states all waring with each other.
Or the pre 3rd Empire Expansionistic Empire model.
Or the 2300 lets get the universe style.
Or pocket empires.
Or Vargr space normaly.
Bye.

Well, I don't know much about the whole Traveller timeline, so it was more of a "why not" idea. The original idea could be used for a completly different setting.

As for Persian in Space, an alien species or a bigger, more organised human empire could fit the bill.

 

[Eamon]

IMTU I do not use the Fuedual system of the Imperium. Instead I use the City-State as the highest form of local government. The planets and space are governed by a profesional Imperial administration.
The City-States have elected governments that can choose their own policies as long as they do not conflict with Imperial rule.
The City-States can even engaged in limited war with each other using the limited weapons and area according to the Imperial rules of war.
This is just a short explaination of my universe.

 

[TKalbfus]

How about Planet-States instead? They're just dots on a map. Each planet owns the surrounding system, unless their tech-level is too low for space travel. There is no interstellar government, and the planets are each named after one of the Hellenic City States. There is a planet called Sparta and one called Athens. The Persians and other Barbarians are alien species that occasionally interpose themselves in human affairs. The people on these planets are polytheistic, the gods they worship are of a more phylosophical bent and the "Force of Nature" Gods have been retired along time ago. Some of the remaining gods are Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Athena, Dionysus, Hades, Hephaestus, Hercules. Gods that make it rain, gods that cause Earthquakes are no longer worshipped. No one knows for sure if these gods exist, and many don't believe in any gods, they are just worshipped by many people. The concept of an afterlife is not a pleasant one, science has taken over from superstition, and no one in these worlds has ever heard of Christianity. Neither judism or any of the other monotheistic religions has ever developed. The Greeks just took off, dominated the world, and colonized space.

Tom

 

[horatio_hex]

Tom, it's a good idea using my original premice.

What I had in mind has more in common with the idea of pockets empires : a central star system (the metropolis) is the center of political power in small region of space, where it controls colonies in a more direct fashion than in the feudal system of the OTU. Of course, you can get a lot of inspiration from ancient history for governement : Sparta can provide ideas for a strict military dictatorship, for exemple. It's ancient history, but with a small coat of paint to hide some of the bigger resemblances

 

[Uncle Bob]

I have never run Traveller in the Imperium, so I sympathise.

I like the idea, but I am not so sure about the pocket empires. It appeals more to me to have systems with multiple habitats under central control (main planet (or two), a couple of mining colonies, O'Neill colonies, asteroid settlements, etc).

I would have two major system-states. One is really industrialized with an enormous commercial fleet. The megacorps keep the government starved, the Army is small and amateurish, the Navy/Marines small but professional, and the Scouts are small but formidable.[Athens Analog]

The other big system-state may even have two habitable planets, but is resource poor. The Army is formidable and probably got its start when the small planet conquored the big one, but they can't afford many starships. They bully the nearby systems and may have conquored one or two poor ones, but lack of resources keep them a local threat. The Army is feudal/hereditary supported by a serf class. Not so much a military dictatorship as a military oligarchy.[Sparta Analog]

Besides the other system-states in this cluster you can have other pocket empires nearby. A couple of low-tech (barely interstellar) regions with cultural commonality with the City States, sort of backwoods cousins [Analogs to Macedonia and Thrace]

More distant pocket empires are more alien (culturally or literally) as analogs of Persia, Egypt, Carthage, Sarmatia and Rome. Maybe even Nubia, Hindustan, Tocharia or China. You can even have human colonies on the perifery of these Empires, like the Ionian city states, Syracuse, the Crimean colonies.

And of course there is a lot of fun to be had disguising the source of this universe, filing off the serial numbers so to speak.

 

[kafka47]

Another great idea for an Imperium in its infancy. I have always thought the Imperium was like an onion skin with layers upon layers, each successive Imperial dynasty would reflect a different aspect of Earth history.

For instance, the reign of Cleon "the Mad" was when the nobility was infacuated with the Aztec civilization. Or the Civil War, was akin to Russia during the Time of Troubles. The current reign of Stephon, I have taken to mean a love affair with the Vilani "High Imperium" providing a dangerous breeding ground for pro-Solomani ideas...that will eventually result in the catastrophie of 1116.

 

[jchurchill]

It's ancient history, but with a small coat of paint to hide some of the bigger resemblances
===============================================
I have been doing this for a while but with 19th century Europe as the chassis before the serial numbers are filed off.

I would recommend Donald Kagan's book on the Pelopp. War if you have not already read it.

Good luck on your campaign.

 

[Mythmere]

Speaking of the Peloponesian War, it's worth remembering that Sparta and Athens both had subject cities - colonies and conquests. Athens had a vast number of cities paying "tribute" to Athens for use in defense against another Persian attack. Athens crushed anyone who didn't pay the tribute. So if you want to do an analogue to the Ancient Greek city states, Athens might be only one system, but it should rule several in addition to its "partners" in the League (I think it was called the Delian League).

 

[Whipsnade]

Mythmere wrote:

"Speaking of the Peloponesian War, it's worth remembering that Sparta and Athens both had subject cities - colonies and conquests."


Sir,

It is also worth remembering how Sparta eventually won too. The expedition against Syracuse did weaken Athens significantly but Sparta didn't prevail until she had enough money to build a fleet and hire rowers (Hollywood aside, most classical rowers were feeemen). That money came from Persia, which made Sparta essentially a Persian client state.

"Athens had a vast number of cities paying "tribute" to Athens for use in defense against another Persian attack. Athens crushed anyone who didn't pay the tribute. So if you want to do an analogue to the Ancient Greek city states, Athens might be only one system, but it should rule several in addition to its "partners" in the League (I think it was called the Delian League)."

Exactly, the League treasury was held in a temple on Delos, hence the name. The monies were supposedly to be used for ships.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Golan2072]

::Casts Ressurrect Thread::

I've just came across this thread and I like the concept. Generally speaking, a city-state part of a universe would probably be of low stellar density, making big, Roman-style empire-building difficult (as was the Greek terrain; alot of valleys seperated by rough mountains, not to mension many small islands, Phillipus II [sp?] was the first to unite it all under his rule after many centuries of city-statism). TL would be low to medium to prevent serious rift-hopping (i.e. no Jump-3+). The "Persian" equivalent would be more developed, with higher stellar density (several interconnected "mains"?) with a centralized government (impersonal bureaucracy comes to mind, perhaps with a dictator or a monarch at its head and perhaps not). The "Egyptian" equivalent would be a small, tight cluster under a rich but heavily conservative government. The "Persians" would be Humans with a very different culture (and especially an authoritarian government); the "Egyptians" would probably be aliens.

You could even add a pseudo-Minoan "golden age" into the universe's history with a huge, possibly matriarchal, peaceful polity collapsing for one reason and another and the city-states eventually emerging from the ashes of its periphery (in more than one stage if you want to be historically-equivalent).

 

[Chaos]

@Employee:

Maybe the "Greeks" should have a higher TL, at least as far as spacefaring technology is concerned - after all the historical Greeks were pretty good sailors which had colonies all over the Mediterranean and Black Sea - Syracuse, Massilia (Marseille), modern-day Sevastopol on the Crimea, to name just three.

The Persians should be several different cultures (but not as different among one another as they are to the Greeks) ruled by one of the these cultures.

 

[tucker2]

Ya' know, David Drake has a series of novels that smack greatly of the Hellenic city states. Lt Leary Commanding and With the Lightnings are two of the books-- there may be more. The setting is a strange combo of city state culture with a steamship sorta navy.

I dunno, give her a look maybe.

 

[Jame]

The Far Side of the Stars is the third in paperback. There's another out in hardcover, plus one bein' written. They're neat! And shiny!

As a side note, tucker2, if you were Tucker 'til 3/16/04, what are you now?

 

[Maladominus]

The city-states model is far more realistic than the Traveller OTU model of "Big Fat Blob of 23-sector Feudal Space Empire That Is Lucky Enough to Last Over One Thousand Years"

 

[tucker2]

Originally posted by Jame:
The Far Side of the Stars is the third in paperback. There's another out in hardcover, plus one bein' written. They're neat! And shiny!

As a side note, tucker2, if you were Tucker 'til 3/16/04, what are you now?

There was some snafu with my original membership, so they said sign up again. There ya go. Anyway, RL I go by Sam, Tuck is my kids moniker.

 

[Renard Ruche]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
The city-states model is far more realistic than the Traveller OTU model of "Big Fat Blob of 23-sector Feudal Space Empire That Is Lucky Enough to Last Over One Thousand Years"

Keyboard Kill!!

I've been thinking about a similar idea lately, since I have been reading Hard Times. Been toying with the idea of some of the Diaspora Emergent Polities stabilizing and forming a net of pocket empires. Heavy influence from Daibei, Margaret and Lucan (unless I kill him off), making a lot of room for speculating, espionage, salvage, etc.