True, though what if due to TL or budget, etc.; there are not BD or spacecraft available? As far as it goes though, spacecraft are the best, just bomb everything from orbit, land cheap infantry to hold ground.
Grav Tanks
- Thread starter BMonnery
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I tend to think it depends on how you plan to employ your assets.
The Imperium Marines appear to be an all arms mechanized force.
The Sword Worlder ground forces appear to be able to hold their own against the Imperium's, but they appear to be well equipped with heavy weapons.
The Imperium Marines appear to be an all arms mechanized force.
The Sword Worlder ground forces appear to be able to hold their own against the Imperium's, but they appear to be well equipped with heavy weapons.
Doctrine also, Europeans in the interwar period used light tanks in their Empires, that were effective out there, and very vulnerable when brought back to Europe for ww2. Grav tanks could be similar, effective against enemies lacking BD, fighter, or fusion guns; vulnerable against enemies similarly armed.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I gave the Confederation Marines assault shuttles, in lieu of everything else, exception battle dress.
But, they're shock surgical strike specialists.
The SSSS.
But, they're shock surgical strike specialists.
The SSSS.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It was in CT LBB:1 '77.
"Battle Dress - The ultimate in battle armor, military battle dress consists of a complete vacuum-suit-like array of metal, synthetic and electronic armor. The values given for protection using battle dress are for the basic suit, without electronic or other enhancements. Battle dress is strictly military, and not available to civilians in most circumstances. When available, base price is around CR 200,000 per suit. Vacc suit skill is required before an individual can even think of using battle dress. In the powered mode, battle dress doubles personal strength, and eliminates any endurance requirements or restrictions."
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That's because it is core to LBB:1 '77 edition, you will find the stats there:
"Battle Dress— The ultimate in battle armor, military battle dress consists of a complete vacuum-suit-like array of metal, synthetic and electronic armor. The values given for protection using battle dress are for the basic suit, without electronic or other enhancements. Battle dress is strictly military, and not available to civilians in most circumstances. When available, base price is around CR 200,000 per suit. Vacc suit skill is required before an individual can even think of using battle dress. In the powered mode, battle dress doubles personal strength, and eliminates any endurance requirements or restrictions."
Badenov
SOC-13
Ah, I have found it in LBB1/80 also. Same basic plan, still not a lot in the way of stats other than to-hit modifiers making it much harder to hit than a soldier, who presumably is much harder to hit than a tank. Which is kind of a big deal until you check out Book 4, which has a host of heavy weapons that can hit someone in Battle Dress pretty easily.
So, my original question is, in that respect, moot for CT. Armored vehicles absolutely have a role there because armor can protect you in ways that Battle Dress cannot, at least in CT Striker. Books 1/3/4 don't talk to vehicle armor that I can find other than mentioning that some vehicles are armored. If there is a reference to vehicle armor use in CT other than Striker please direct me?
In MgT, however, armored vehicles' role is usurped by Battle Dress-armored troops, where available, making armor strictly a low-TL thing, because vehicle armor and personal armor both work in basically the same way to reduce incoming damage. 'Low TL' being 12 and below. Though Combat Armor + Grav Belt makes a soldier pretty competitive with armored vehicles also. Also note that armored vehicles tend to be more expensive than armored soldiers, so budget isn't an issue.
So, I think my question is answered differently in different rule sets, and at different TLs, but I think I now have a grip.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I'd have automated laser point defence.
But against a near peer opponent, you're going to have to deal with four dimensional threats, or multi spectrum.
Five, if you include psionics.
But against a near peer opponent, you're going to have to deal with four dimensional threats, or multi spectrum.
Five, if you include psionics.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I got the message the first two times.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
LBB:1 '81, The Traveller Book, and Starter Edition:
"Battle Dress (Cr200.000; TL 13): The ultimate in individual protection, battle dress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor. Battle dress enhances the strength and senses of individuals wearing it with variable feedback personal controls, servopowered limbs, and various kinds of electronic assistance. The individual wearing battle dress is effectively doubled in strength and given unlimited endurance (for lifting, carrying, and fighting purposes; not for wounds received) and receives a DM of +2 for surprise."
It's either onboard electronic sense augmentation or these days I would add a drone swarm surrounding the BD.
"Battle Dress (Cr200.000; TL 13): The ultimate in individual protection, battle dress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor. Battle dress enhances the strength and senses of individuals wearing it with variable feedback personal controls, servopowered limbs, and various kinds of electronic assistance. The individual wearing battle dress is effectively doubled in strength and given unlimited endurance (for lifting, carrying, and fighting purposes; not for wounds received) and receives a DM of +2 for surprise."
It's either onboard electronic sense augmentation or these days I would add a drone swarm surrounding the BD.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
There's a reason a lot of stories have battlefield force fields.
Anything that's seen and can be caught up, becomes ketchup.
And unpowered infantry would fall into that category.
Anything that's seen and can be caught up, becomes ketchup.
And unpowered infantry would fall into that category.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Actual cavalry.
Commander Truestar
SOC-13
There's a lot of talk about Battledress engaged with local forces in a balkanized system.
I'd remind you that in World War II, the massive numbers of armor and firepower deficient American Sherman tanks were part of the defeat of Advanced technology German armor.
Why?
Because the allies could manufacture, man and deploy more of them.
If you are engaging an enemy on a less-than important system where there is no Imperial Naval or Marine base, the likely size of the deployment will be a platoon or less. So, they will likely be outnumbered in overwhelming ratios. That means they will likely be used as "force multipliers" in key engagements, and not deployed for general combat.
One of my PC's "lost" his battledress because he let himself get overwhelmed.
He moved up to engage an entire fireteam on a desert world without consideration it might be a trap.
While they swarmed him and tried to hold him down, a nomad who'd had himself buried sprung from the sand with an "armor cutting device" and jammed it into the back of his armor.
The PC was so busy dealing with the five in front of him, and so overconfident, that he ignored the guy behind him "for now".
Until the cutter sliced through the armor and cut into the armor's computer boards.
Ancient tanks or even slings and rocks can take out advanced forces who are over confident.
Read Sun Tzu
I'd remind you that in World War II, the massive numbers of armor and firepower deficient American Sherman tanks were part of the defeat of Advanced technology German armor.
Why?
Because the allies could manufacture, man and deploy more of them.
If you are engaging an enemy on a less-than important system where there is no Imperial Naval or Marine base, the likely size of the deployment will be a platoon or less. So, they will likely be outnumbered in overwhelming ratios. That means they will likely be used as "force multipliers" in key engagements, and not deployed for general combat.
One of my PC's "lost" his battledress because he let himself get overwhelmed.
He moved up to engage an entire fireteam on a desert world without consideration it might be a trap.
While they swarmed him and tried to hold him down, a nomad who'd had himself buried sprung from the sand with an "armor cutting device" and jammed it into the back of his armor.
The PC was so busy dealing with the five in front of him, and so overconfident, that he ignored the guy behind him "for now".
Until the cutter sliced through the armor and cut into the armor's computer boards.
Ancient tanks or even slings and rocks can take out advanced forces who are over confident.
Read Sun Tzu
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I was thinking also stealth elements, perhaps visual like Predator, or silent movement or gliding along with grav belts.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
It depends.
Some protection (and mobility), is better than none.
Since brute force tends to be dependent on reliable and extensive logistics, plus, commanders can now see the battlefield, it could devolve into the stalemate that's currently in Ukraine.
Some protection (and mobility), is better than none.
Since brute force tends to be dependent on reliable and extensive logistics, plus, commanders can now see the battlefield, it could devolve into the stalemate that's currently in Ukraine.
Opening a limited bit of current events
Ukraine's not really a stalemate, tho'...
Ukraine isn't going for the "grab the terrain and hold it" mode; they're going for the "grind them down until the Apparatchiki terminate Putin for incompetence." They will hold what they wind up with until the end... but they know the real victory is ending Putinesque calls for Annexing portions of external nations bit by bit, via humiliating defeats by numerically inferior foes...
Russia has numbers, and a leader willing to waste lives.
Ukraine has allowed it's troops to local improvise munitions, provided the targets are military...
Nothing so satisfying as seeing tankers bailing out because a hand grenade was just drone delivered into the interior of the overheated troops inside an aged and poorly maintained MBT. One drone tech took out 10 tanks with a dozen hand grenades and a dozen drones... (two were shot down by dismounted troops...) in a day or so. A few thousand dollars worth of drones, a few hundred worth of grenades, and $10 of duck tape and twine... taking out 10 tanks... T-90's are a few million dollars worth each; the T-14's are $8-$12 million... Basically, they're getting a 1000:1 price advantage, on a 1:100 budget.
The Ukrainian goals are happening, the Russians aren't...
Ukraine wants most to destroy the Russian ability to fight, on two fronts: political and military. The political is slow going; the military is going surprisingly well, as Russia's having to break out the old tanks to keep fielding more. Ukraine showed it could target the capital on Mayday.
Russia's also running low on non-conscript troops. Russia's gained one oblast (district), lost a different one, and is losing a second. It's got war damage to infrastructure all the way to Moscow. And miminal civilian damage — Ukraine is holding the moral high ground, as Russia's been targeting everything.
So, while it's not a lot of visible-on-the-map change, it's a strongly changing military situation as Russia's strength is being sapped further and further.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. In terms of combined arms, where's the Russian air force?
2. One theory is, what's still maintainable is considered a strategic reserve against other enemies, if you consider actual numbers supposedly (still) in the inventory.
3. Also, it could be implied, besides the lack of trained pilots and maintenance personnel, for whatever reason, as well as the skies are too deadly beyond a safe buffer zone.
4. Driving and maintaining a tank is a lot easier, and there are stockpiles dating back to just after the Great Patriotic War.
5. Which, apparently, are reaching exhaustion.
6. I'm told motor cycles are now part of the official table of organization and equipment.
7. I suppose donkeys being unofficial.
8. Unless a Tee Ninety, or the elusive Armata, stick their head out of cover, you don't need a Javelin anti tank missile.
9. And, I suspect, if any modern tanks are still running, they're part of the Moscow garrison.
A. What we have is the modern iteration of the human wave attack, against what should be heavily monitored and defended frontlines.
B. With the Russians, we know they built it in depth.
C. In the long run, demographics trend to the Russians running out of enough men for conscription and volunteer contracts to be able to maintain an extended attritional war.
D. With tanks, armoured vehicles, and apparently, trucks, they've already passed way beyond this point.
E. Because the logical tactic, at this point, is to mass all the remaining tanks, heavy artillery, and troop transporters, backed by all the remaining attack aircraft and helicopters (not the interceptors and heavy bombers), find a weak point, and just pour through it.
F. Classic Soviet strategy, without the Maskirovka, being now somewhat impossible.
G. That it's not being done, is somewhat telling.
2. One theory is, what's still maintainable is considered a strategic reserve against other enemies, if you consider actual numbers supposedly (still) in the inventory.
3. Also, it could be implied, besides the lack of trained pilots and maintenance personnel, for whatever reason, as well as the skies are too deadly beyond a safe buffer zone.
4. Driving and maintaining a tank is a lot easier, and there are stockpiles dating back to just after the Great Patriotic War.
5. Which, apparently, are reaching exhaustion.
6. I'm told motor cycles are now part of the official table of organization and equipment.
7. I suppose donkeys being unofficial.
8. Unless a Tee Ninety, or the elusive Armata, stick their head out of cover, you don't need a Javelin anti tank missile.
9. And, I suspect, if any modern tanks are still running, they're part of the Moscow garrison.
A. What we have is the modern iteration of the human wave attack, against what should be heavily monitored and defended frontlines.
B. With the Russians, we know they built it in depth.
C. In the long run, demographics trend to the Russians running out of enough men for conscription and volunteer contracts to be able to maintain an extended attritional war.
D. With tanks, armoured vehicles, and apparently, trucks, they've already passed way beyond this point.
E. Because the logical tactic, at this point, is to mass all the remaining tanks, heavy artillery, and troop transporters, backed by all the remaining attack aircraft and helicopters (not the interceptors and heavy bombers), find a weak point, and just pour through it.
F. Classic Soviet strategy, without the Maskirovka, being now somewhat impossible.
G. That it's not being done, is somewhat telling.
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