Government and Law Level for Population 0 worlds

[RogerD]

I've been playing around with writing yet another system generator, and I just noticed something interesting: In no edition of Traveller I have (Classic LBB2, LBB6, Mega, TNE, T4, T5) do the generation rules specify that if the population of the main world is 0, so are the government and law level. There's an implicit lower end of 0 since there are no codes.

From a universe building perspective, non-zero government and/or law level could indicate there are actually 1-9 people there or that you have a dieback situation vs. just a barren rock. It could also have something to do with another nearby world that claims this world.

Have I had it wrong all these years and this is allowable, or is it simply a common-sense thing that you should always get 000 for the last three of the UWP if the population is 0? The rules for secondary world generation DO call out that population 0 means government=0, law level=0 in each of the systems, though I wasn't looking as closely at that.

I checked the Spinward Marches and found no examples of this, so I'm guessing it is just an omission with common sense expected to be applied.

 

[kilemall]

I would assume 000 as well, but let’s say we don’t.

Over half the rolls would be 0 anyway, but many wouldn’t. Could mean it’s the rules and law level that applies when people actually are there. Something like meetings of the tribes where trade and mating exchanges occur, but no one lives there permanently or it’s understood to be neutral/holy ground.

 

[Condottiere]

Matter of enforcement.

 

[McPerth]

This is a recurrent discussion...

POP 0 may mean just no permanent residents, as Kilemall says, but there may be inhabitated outposts.

Does POP mean how many people is there, or how many people calls it home?

After all, how many people call the Anctartica their home? And, nonehteless, there is people (temporarly) living there, and laws apply...

 

[Commander Truestar]

IMTU, "Population 0" means "The laws may vary depending on who or what you encounter while visiting there"

Like "Don't leave food out in Bear country", the laws may be as implicit as those imposed by the local flora and fauna or they may be as explicit as those enforced by the pirate outpost you tripped over.

By going there, your party are imposing "laws" local to your 'area of effect'.

But, having a UPW Law Level of 1 or 2 may mean "As imposed by the regular Imperial Navy patrol of the system" or "As experienced when dealing with the regular traffic of trading vessels scooping fuel from the local gas giants"

 

[RogerD]

In principle, you could get a xxx05A world. There are 1-9 people in a feudal technocracy that attempt to enforce very strong laws?

Leaning towards adding the "000" rule, but certainly interesting to consider the alternatives!

 

[mike wightman]

1-9 "people" will still have a government and laws.

 

[Commander Truestar]

1-9 "people" will still have a government and laws.

And, some command structure or pecking order...IE: a government

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, how they enforce those laws when a merchant ship and passengers turns up...

 

[McPerth]

In principle, you could get a xxx05A world. There are 1-9 people in a feudal technocracy that attempt to enforce very strong laws?

That might be a scientific outpost (hence the feudal technocracy, as the knowledge is what puts you on command) with very strict rules (maybe they are performing secret research...).

There are 1-9 permanent residents, plus other scientific personnel in temporary duty, but they are not allowed too much freedom while working there...

That's just an example of what those stats might mean, sure there may be other explanations.

 

[Condottiere]

What's the criteria for the census?

The electorate might only count (and vote), and that might preclude a rather large demographic(s).

 

[WizWom]

What's the criteria for the census?

The electorate might only count (and vote), and that might preclude a rather large demographic(s).

Imperial Census counts all sophonts, regardless of position in society. Examples where this would be missed are where some sophonts play dumb, like the Chirpers do on Vanejen, and are considered smart animals. Although if they have villages with huts, I have no idea how that works.

 

[Peter Newman]

In principle, you could get a xxx05A world. There are 1-9 people in a feudal technocracy that attempt to enforce very strong laws?

Leaning towards adding the "000" rule, but certainly interesting to consider the alternatives!

"Mom and Dad say that we have to do our homework and that we can't own any weapons. They have the Engineering degrees, so we have to listen to them."

And, I'm done here.

 

[atpollard]

What is the POP, GOV & LL of the ISS?
If it was an International Moon Base instead of a LEO station would that make a difference?
If "Project Horizon" has gone forward and that Moon Base was under the Operational Command of the US Army would that make a difference?

* a side note: Project Horizon was intended for a Population of up to 20 ... so 5 might be permanent US ARMY residents on 4 year tours and 15 rotating visitors conducting research if it had evolved along ISS lines after establishment.

 

[Krikkitone]

I think for starport X pop 0 then 00 makes sense… otherwise it could be a government that is formalized for (and supported by) off worlders.
1 easy to explain
2 any starport operations decisions are put to a vote
3 there’s a boss, but it’s not really a corporation
4 they elect the person to officially deal with outsiders
5 sort of like a ship crew without a “captain” but each person handles their own stuff.

At pop 0 those are all pretty similar…but the “official form” is what shows up on TAS forms.

 

[frankm]

For pop 0 worlds I suspect anyone there doesn't want to be found by a census, scout, or anyone else. Whether they are smugglers, scavengers, illegal colonists... the government and law will be whatever the current inhabitants want or need and the answers would depend upon who was finding them. My generation system always puts 0 law, 0 gov (and X starport), but if players go there the population just went up notably Unofficial ships could be there for exploration, wilderness refueling, checking on things, emergency repairs after a misjump, etc. What I think would be missing are permanent settlements and established structures.

 

[GypsyComet]

This is also mildly edition sensitive, as Mongoose decided that Pop 0 means *zero*.

To the extent that all UWPs are snapshots, a world within a large state like the Imperium that has any potential at all won't be barren for very long. Pack a Type R with colonists and the hold with a startup kit and you've just changed the UWP to Pop 1, Mult 2 even without convincing the crew of the ship to stay.

 

[mike wightman]

MgT cab no longer be considered canonical fir anything but Mongooses settings IMHO

Here are a couple of changes they have made to their ATU
personal energy shields at TL15, with vehicle and ship screens at lower TLs
conscious entities are necessary on jump ships or there is a greater risk of misjump
tachyon canon, ion canon (a direct Star Wars rip off)

 

[RogerD]

This is also mildly edition sensitive, as Mongoose decided that Pop 0 means *zero*.

Just checked the editions I have: Cepheus, T4, T5, LBB3 and LBB6 also treat 0 as 0. Only Megatraveller and TNE treat it as 0-9 that I've seen.

I could see having a different code altogether for "no population" or even omitting it.

For a mainworld, I don't have a problem with Pop 0 meaning 0-9 or 1-9, it's all the other planets and moons in a system that are much more likely to be completely unoccupied.

I think it's a little bit interesting that Pocket Empires has a low effort colony (the smallest possible) start at Pop 3.

The government and law level of an outpost in the 10's or even 100's feels like it might be some kind of special case and perhaps the generation rules should take that into account (but mostly they don't)

 

[mike wightman]

LBB6 has a population code of 0 equal to 0-9 inhabitants it's hidden in the text rather than the cut and paste (and now incorrect) table.

Tne population digit is an exponent of 10

So 0 is any number between 0 and 9.

Note exactly the same text is used in The Traveller Book and Starter Traveller, and it was carried forward to MT and TNE.