Goodies for Nobles: Rough stuff..

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I have experienced that too, Early on in Trav. A noble result meant next to nothing as far as PCs were concerned, they were Barons in gunfights, basically.

If the idea is presented, I say use it, make it fit to a game. Some may see it as bad luck or good luck, but there should be more of a push to define nobility. There must be ways to do it and preseve game balance without shafting the PC.

If everyone's holdings were insolvent, the Imperium would be insolvent. Even the percentage of PC nobles that have holdings but never see/use/run them would be an indicator that large parts of the Imperium were not working.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
Being from the US, what I know about nobility, I read in fantasy novels , so I am probably totally off with everything I come up with in this area, then again, in 3000+ years, and Vilani influences, who's to say that I'm not right? (OK all together now... "You're not right"

)

There's a lot of truth in that statement. Offhand, I would say 99% of Americans know little about the British system of peerage and sicla ranking.

I do know a little, with the help of the internet.

Baronets and Knights are NOT peers.

Baron von Gushiddan's post has quite a few violations of the peerage system in it. For starters, fiefs involve entailed and non-entailed properties. Entailed properties CANNOT be separated from the title to which they are entailed; I know, that sounds circular but it isn't. Non-entailed properties cannot be entailed to any title except by passage of law. Sorry, Baron, but it really doesn't wash. No offense, man

The other idea that has been expressed in this thread was that a Duke runs a specific something, an Earl somewhat less, a Count even less, etc. That truly only applies in a true feudal system which I doubt ever existing for very long. Certainly Englisg/British history since the Danes were expelled has not shown this concept. Charles Townshend was a Viscount when he was PM and he had a Duke - don't remember who - as Chancellor of the Exchequer (d*** that's a hard word to spell for an American).

However, I do like Baron von Gushiddan's benefits tables, except for the Moot Holdings. That, I think should be placed in the sole hands of the referee with secret rolls.

IMHO, of course.

BTW, In Dune, the nobles' power came from the percentages of stock they held in the Imperial Coporation - can't remember the name - which controlled Spice.

 

[Spiderfish]

I think the corporation in Dune was CHOAM.

Yes it was Combine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles.

 

[vegascat]

Feudalism is based on reciprocal swearing of loyalty to and from your superior. This gives a span of responsibility for areas out of direct control of a noble leader.
Has anyone used the idea of nobles swearing loyalty to the next person up the noble food chain?

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

It would be best if the rolls are indeed secret, players should have as little control over picking as possible.

I'm not so sure about anything washing or not washing. I dont think Earth notions and practices of nobility would be suited to interstellar society, and it shouldn't be so direct a mirror. I posit the earl system as it is now, transplanted to millions of worlds would make for an entire ruling class that would be hard to check on, even by each other.

You must consider that we talk of Dukes, Knights, etc, but like a lot of times with Traveller, we forget there are scout couriers, combat armor, and lasers. Applying Earth standards of nobility would be good for one thing: Getting the people to rise up and destroy them/get them out of power. Few realize how harmful the Aristocracy was to the world, in only just the last century.

Consider the end of the Victorian Era and the beginning of the Edwardian. Most rulers of european countries were blood cousin relatives. One family truly controlled the destiny of billions. Considering some of my own COusins, and how we fight/sometimes dislike each other, the root of WWI begins to make sense, if you take out the slaughter and mud.

Which is why I suggest making them work for it as a ref. A knight and Baron should be members of the Peerage, but the "Oh sure, you're in the Peerage, Baron" variety. They should be seen as the Moot's work donkeys. Neuvo Riche. Moot Outsiders to Marquis+. Otherwise, again, you would have a lot of aristocracy just absorbing gross stellar product and giving nothing in return.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

REprinted cross topic for your consideration lords...


Sylean Chess, aKa "Empire" or "Imperium" Chess.
(NOTE: I am going to actaully make this)

A one meter diameter hexagonal board with flat gameboard tiers, similar to chess squares, but may be hexagons. The board looks like a hexagonal step pyramid.

You must have at least three players, but it is better with six.

The board has a round outer ring, which is the players start point as "Personas" (the player's piece) This represents Space.

The first Tier, populated by Knights, is the Land Tier. Players in thier moves must try to get past the other players as they control the Knights to block the moving player in a team effort. All Knights can do is Delay progress of the Persona.
Knights are this game's pawns. Traditionally, this has a world surface map motif. Knights can move two hexes.

The Second Tier, populated by Barons, is the World Tier. Barons function like Knights, and can only Delay or Block Personae. This Teir has a planetary motif. Barons can move three hexes in any direction

The Third Tier, populated By Marquis, is the System tier. Marquis peices are few, but they can potentially Destroy a Persona when properly used in force. This tier has a Star System motif.
Marquis can move 4 hexes.

The Fourth Tier, Populated by Counts, is the County Tier. Counts can easily Destroy a Persona, if two can be put into the right position to strike by the opposing players remaining.
Counts can move Five hexes

The Fifth Tier, Populated by Dukes, Is the Chart Tier, Dukes can alone Destroy a Persona if in position. This teir should have subsector map like motifs. (planets connected by trade routes, say...) Counts can move six hexes.

The Imperial Tier is Populated by whoever makes it through the Peerage to become Emperor. The Imperial Sunburst is in the center of the top Tier. If only one Persona Remains, that person wins. If more than one, they must fight, with losers being Destroyed.

The last one Standing is "Emperor" of the game.

Destroy = YOu lose. Out of the game.

Delay = a move or series of moves designed to slow the progress to the Throne.

Sylean Chess is a social game, it combines chess with chinese checkers and a bit of "Odd man out". It is a children's game designed to familarize them with the workings of the Moot, indirectly.

Traditional Persona Piece Colors are Black, White, Red, Blue, Green, and Yellow

Moot pieces are commonly all Maroon, and the shape denotes the piece.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

"Feudalism is based on reciprocal swearing of loyalty to and from your superior. This gives a span of responsibility for areas out of direct control of a noble leader.
Has anyone used the idea of nobles swearing loyalty to the next person up the noble food chain?"

Yes, all the time, the nobles owe fealty to both Emperor and the Noble what elevated them to Peerage status. There must be some way to make these oaths really mean something, I can already see some Barons I know going in, swearing loyalty, and then immediately returning to the Opium Den of Personal Hedonism. I only manage that on rare occasion...

 

[parmasson]

^Well… although someone may be the Baron of Cowpie, the emperor or duke actually owns the fief absolute fee simple. A Bill of Attainder* would place those lands back in the hands of the king or with the 3I into the hands of the feudal lord. Rents no longer have to be paid to the baron, his military titles would disappear, his judicial authority would evaporate. Used sparingly as a punishment, historically it was a great tool for keeping the nobility in line. Use it too much and you have a rebellion on your hands.


* Confiscation of rights or property also see Allodial title.
In former times, the removal of the rights or the confiscation of the property of somebody outlawed or sentenced to death for a serious crime, often treason but we can change it a little bit.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

That is the perfect analog. Emperor as Landlord, and Lower Nobles as tennants... all of these holdings and titles should be given and taken away as punishments and rewards, Even things like Grants. Bad nobles can suddenly find themselves landless and Owing the Empire some MCr. (Good base for adventure: Noble house fleeing disgrace to outside the Imperium)

 

[BillDowns]

Sounds like it still gets down to basics - the Ref calls it....

And that's the real beauty of Traveller, isn't it?

 

[parmasson]

IIRC Henry VII was quite fond of them. The old standby GR Elton gives a good rundown if you want more info.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Thing is, I have yet to finalize the Bank Loan to get GT: Nobles

, but I am curious, how close am I to that, content wise? Does anyone have it that can comment?

 

[JAFARR]

IMTU, there are 2 sets of nobles: The actual Noblity who hold the power, and the preceived "nobility". The members of the actual nobility are all NCPs and are the ones who hold positions of authority. PCs of noble rank are of the preceived noblity which can mean one of several things.
(1) Members of nobile families removed from the chain of authority for some reason. Several possiblities come to mind, but others are possible also. (a) younger siblings not directly in line of sucession - often take military life as a profession. (b) stripped of authority as a result of some criminal action, but allowed to retain some privilages due to family ties, etc. (c) resigned due to some personal reasons like health, failure to be able to handle the job, or family ousted from power. (d) child of one of the above.
(2) Society has placed you (or perhaps your ancestors) in a social status equilivant to nobility. As example: Entertainment and sports figures whose ideas gain popularity because of what the person has accomplished in another rhelm. (as noted in the Pro athlete thread, Micheal Jackson is much better known world wide than say the King of Spain)
(3) The most common reason is as a reward for good service to the military or the government (read high ranking member of the nobility) by you or your ancestors.

Perceived nobility may have some form of income generated by that SS, but usually will spend it in maintaining that status. e.i. MJ makes a fortune from advertising which he is asked to do due to his basketball fame, but he also spends a lot because of the life style he lives.

The most likely benefit to members of the perceived nobility is preferential treatment or a chance to be received by someone due to the use of their title, generally someone who otherwise would not have given them the opportunity if they were un-titled.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Thing is, I have yet to finalize the Bank Loan to get GT: Nobles

, but I am curious, how close am I to that, content wise? Does anyone have it that can comment?

Did you know that SJGs has reduced the price of all its GT stuff if bought direct from Warehouse23, and all of its remaining 3rd edition GURPS based stuff too.

 

[princelian]

Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:

If everyone's holdings were insolvent, the Imperium would be insolvent. Even the percentage of PC nobles that have holdings but never see/use/run them would be an indicator that large parts of the Imperium were not working.

Your observation is completely true, Your Excellency, and completely inapplicable. While I have run campaigns in which the PCs attain great wealth - hundreds of billions of Imperial Credits' INCOME, mind you - these are usually endgame scenarios. Planetary noble-scale monetary resources at start-game are likely to cause campaign-threatening problems.

On to the "rules," as shown in T20; they're more generous with starting money for the noble than CT or MT.

A noble ending Prior History has access to significant wealth only if they own a yacht at least 25% (i.e., they get "yacht" as a mustering out benefit at least twice, once for the down payment and once for 25% of the payments). They can sell the yacht for a few-to-a-dozen MCr and have all the non-starship-purchasing money they're likely to need, unless they're going to do something like outfit a grav-tank mercenary company.

Other than that, the noble ends up with an MCr or so at best, and if they went enough terms, another MCr 0.12 per year (10k/month) for a "pension."

With their big social standing, they can also use a class feat (Trust Fund) to borrow more money, of course: a noble character with an 18 SS can borrow MCr 18 versus an 8th level char with Credit Line and an 8 SS, who can borrow only 64,000.

So the noble might have a million, some of it borrowed using Credit Line, if he rolls really really well, liquidates some of his mustering out benefits (remember, he can only take three rolls on the money table), and takes a loan. He can draw on his title's Trust Fund, if he has established credit patterns, so not at campaign start, for SS x 1 MCr as a loan.

That's it, and setting aside the Trust Fund loan for a starting character, maybe a million, tops, with Cr 10k/month and another Cr 200 x SS, let's say 3600/month, for a total of Cr 13,600/month income. There is no provision for this example Baronial character to get access to more money within the rules.

Even someone who gets up to Duke in the Prior History is going to have little more money - they can borrow a little more with the Credit Line feat - but will eventually be able to borrow more against their Trust Fund.

So quod erat demonstrandum, a Traveller noble player character cannot, for whatever reason, draw significantly on their ennobled wealth unless the GM bends the rules in some way.

Which implies that either the PC is not the inheriting noble (older siblings), there are constraints (perhaps Constitutional) on how much of their peoples' money they can spend, or other restrictions. These restrictions aren't stated anywhere, so they aren't canon, per se, but they are there.

<Traveller-speak>Respectfully Submitted For Your Excellency's Consideration</Traveller-speak>

 

[Spiderfish]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
[QB]

(as noted in the Pro athlete thread, Micheal Jackson is much better known world wide than say the King of Spain)

Michael Jackson is a pro athlete?

 

[Plankowner]

I agree BillDowns!

Well, it has been a LONG time since I actually played or ran an Traveller Campaign, so everything I say now is for fun and doesn't really effect any real world stuff.

BUT, since being a Noble occurs 1 in 12 players, I think that any Ref worth their salt should REALLY consider how they want to use Nobility in their game.

Baron Saarthuran, if you make your Nobles really work their Fief, when do they get time to be TRAVELLERS? Under your system it seems like it would be very hard to have a Noble be anything other than an NPC most of the time. How did you balance that?

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Hire or Command a good Major Domo. There are always diplomatic missions to handle. Trips to the Moot, anything. One of Noble Rights is Free Passage. Anywhere in Imperial Space. Sabbaticals, Intrigues, all kinds of stuff...

 

[princelian]

Although circumstantial evidence would seem to convict me of harassing His Excellency, I'm really, truly not trying to jump on Baron von Gushiddan's posts...

However, I have to beg the question as to why the noble class would need to have TAS Membership in its mustering-out benefit table if they get free passage anywhere?

I'm focusing here only on the play balance/game mechanical aspects as they pertain to Traveller player characters. It might be, in a novel, such a system would be perfect.

Now, if the noble in question is on official Imperial business, that's a different question, of course. The Imperium might pay for/voucher the noble's expenses, up to some point of sanity, for the trip. But I could also see the Imperium expecting that the noble - whose family is presumably solvent - pay for their own expenses on such trips. (Which might account for the relatively low mustering-out money the career grants [as compared to planetary wealth].)

I guess I'm looking at this whole discussion from the jaundiced eye of a long-time GM (1976-present...sheesh, that's 30 years; I'm so old) who is hesitant, at best, at granting additional class abilities beyond the specific benefits listed in the class.

Certainly, the noble will have a bonus in dealing with other nobles and upper-crust wannabes on other worlds. Certainly, there will be those the noble can influence with his Social Standing to do things - even make deals - they wouldn't normally do. But these benefits are outlined in the class - Noble Influence, etc. - and I'd be wary of increasing them.

Of course, I have yet to run my own T20 campaign, so the benefit the noble class's special feats grant may be neglible in the long run. I don't believe they will be, but I don't have any actual proof.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

See here, you rascal!

It should surely be an option. There should be several types of noble in the system, enough to suit any game, and the ref and player should set the level of involvement together. There are a lot of adventure crystals in thar. Sure, not having to really sweat money can make travelling easy, but there is a lot more to TAS membership than just pasages. TAS I believe gives you 1 passage a year, Right of Free Passage is anytime you want...

And free drinks, too. I called it!