Fuerza espacial expedicionaria argentina

[jcmenal]

FUERZA ESPACIAL EXPEDICIONARIA ARGENTINA
“Argentine Expeditionary Space Force”

Narrative:

"Sensor One: Sir, Captain. The Elysian frigates had been destroyed. The Montrose is the last one, we are alone, Sir."

"Captain: Helm, trace a route to face the last Alpha. Tactical, be ready to open fire against the Kafers, be aware their Golfs, we must destroy them. Prepare the landers for a drop assault."

"Sensor One: Captain, two ships had left the FTL shelf. My God, Betas sir, two Beta Class Battlecruisers."

"Captain: We must resist people, it won’t be reinforcements. The Kafers are blocking the BCV system. We are the last hope for the Joians and…"

"Sensor One: Dam it Sir, more ships are de-warping. A Delta and …..… wait, ........ cant be Sir, the Delta is exploding."

"Sensor Two: Is the Santa Maria Sir. The Argies are here."

Extracts from Command Log HMS Montrose. December 26 2307, 4th Battle for Joi, "The Miracle of 2308" (12/26/07 to 05/26/09).

 

[jcmenal]

History Timeline part 1

History (1/2)


In 2299, despite the rivalry with the British and the ESA nations, Argentina sent two frigates to support the Human forces against the Kafers. Those frigates were later destroyed at Beta Comae Berenices.

In 2301, Argentina formed an Expeditionary Fleet and sent a couple of squadrons to reinforce the Human forces. As part of the Terran Reserve Fleet, they fought against and defeat the Triumphant Destiny.

In 2303, everyone thought the war was over, the Expeditionary Fleet returned to the Sol system. Just to continue the hostilities with the Brazilians, sadly, the Mexicans, their closest allies were under their 3rd Revolution War.

In 2305, the tensions with Brazil were too high, however, the return of the Kafer menace was a higher issue to the Argentine authorities. Argentina sent a battlegroup led by the battlecruiser “NEA Santa Maria” to the Neubayern system as part of the Terran Reserve Fleet. Argentina remained with 3 battlegroups in the Core and in the Chinese Arm, one led by the “NEA La Argentina” at the Sol system, one led by the “NEA Chimborazo” at the Omicron2 Eridani, the last battlegroup led by the “NEA Tierra de Hielo” was transferred from the DM-26 12026 system to Alpha Centauri system replacing the NEA Santa Maria.

 

[jcmenal]

History Timeline part 2

History (2/2)

In 2307, the Santa Maria’s battlegroup which included a Mexican auxiliary carrier (unarmed converted freighter) was moved into the inner French Arm and took a more active role in the war. The Tierra de Hielo’s battlegroup took its place in the Terran Reserve Fleet at Neubayern. Four Mexican Corvette Escorts along with an infantry regiment (volunteers) was all the support that Mexico provided due its own Civil War. Contact with most of the colony worlds and with the Santa Maria was lost. After that Argentina sent a Wing of Corvette Escorts, the Mexican escorts formed part of such Wing.

In 2309, the Kafers were stopped at Neubayern, the Tierra de Hielo’s battlegroup moved into French Arm and fought in the liberation of Kimanjano and Beta Canum. Contrary to the possibilities, the Santa Maria’s battlegroup was found in 61 Ursae Majoris, along with the HMS Montrose and a squadron of Trilon fighters. During 74 weeks they defended and rejected the Kafer incursions over Joi, Kie Yuma and Crater.

In 2311, newly ship classes were sent to replace the older classes, but Expeditionary Fleet was transferred to the Reserve Fleet and such classes never saw action against the Kafers, just the newly Corvettes fired against the Kafers at Gamma Serpentis. The Santa Maria was based around Dunkelheim in the DM+36 2393 system. The Tierra de Hielo was based around Adlehorst at the Vogelheim system.

In 2313, both battlegroups, the corvettes and the Mexican regiment returned to the Core as heroes. The Kafer War was ended and the Mexican Civil War as well.

 

[jcmenal]

Ships

Ships


1st Expeditionary Squadron (2299 - 2301)

1st Squadron
* 2 FF (Ushuaia Class)


1st Expeditionary Fleet (2301 - 2303)

1st Squadron
* 1 CA (Libertador Class)
* 1 DD (General Belgrano Class)
* 2 FF (Ushuaia Class)

2nd Squadron
* 1 CA (Libertador Class)
* 1 DD (General Belgrano Class)
* 2 FF (Ushuaia Class)


2nd Expeditionary Fleet (2305 -2313)

Santa Maria’s Battlegroup:
* 1 BC NEA Santa Maria (Santa Maria Class)
* 1 CA (Libertador Class), replaced in 2311 by 1 CG (Independencia Class)
* 1 DD (General Belgrano Class), replaced in 2311 by 1 DD (Revolucion Class)
* 2 FF (Ushuaia Class), replaced in 2311 by 2 FF (Guajardo Class)
* 2 SDB (Fantasma Class):
* * 2 embarked in the Santa Maria.
* 6 Fighters (Pulqui Class):
* * 6 embarked in the Santa Maria.
* 4 Landers (Espectro Class):
* * 4 embarked in the Santa Maria.
* 1 Spatial Infantry Company: embarked in the Santa Maria

Tierra de Hielo’s Battlegroup:
* 1 BC NEA Tierra de Hielo (Santa Maria Class)
* 1 CG (Hercules Class)
* 1 DD (Antartida Class)
* 2 FF (Espora Class)
* 4 SDB (Fantasma Class):
* * 2 embarked in the Tierra de Hielo,
* * 1 embarked in the Hercules,
* * 1 embarked in the Antartida.
* 9 Fighters (Pulqui Class):
* * 6 embarked in the Tierra de Hielo,
* * 3 embarked in the Hercules.
* 10 Landers (Espectro Class):
* * 4 embarked in the Tierra de Hielo,
* * 2 embarked in the Hercules,
* * 2 embarked in the Antartida,
* * 1 embarked in each Espora.
* 1 Spatial Infantry Company:
* * embarked in the Tierra de Hielo.


Corvette Escort Wing: (2307 - 2313)

1st Escort Squadron:
* 2 CE (Cuba Class)
* 2 CE (Durango Class)

2nd Escort Squadron:
* 2 CE (Cuba Class)
* 2 CE (Durango Class)


Mexican Volunteers: (2307 - 2313)

Mexican Strike Force:
* 1 CV NEM Ignacio Zaragoza (converted freighter, S-4000 Class): assigned to the Santa Maria’s Battlegroup.
* 8 Fighters (Jaguar Class):
* * 8 embarked in the Zaragoza
* 1 Spatial Infantry Regiment: under the French Foreign Legion command.

3rd Escort Squadron:
2 CE (Cuba Class)
2 CE (Durango Class), replaced in 2311 by 2 CE (Moctezuma Class)

 

[Colin]

I like the write-up, but that might be a lot of weight for Argentina to be throwing. I would reduce either the number of ships or the number of battlegroups.

 

[jcmenal]

Done it. Yea, I thought so too. Actually Argentina commited nearly the half of her Space Force in the Kafer War. Also thought to sent back 1 battlegroup to the Core in 2311.

 

[Duke Pellinor]

I like the write-up, but that might be a lot of weight for Argentina to be throwing. I would reduce either the number of ships or the number of battlegroups.

Me too. JC this is the type of fan created material that I am looking for to go in the 2320AD Wiki, perhaps you would like to wander over and see how it has grown recently and look at the Traveller wiki to see where I'd like it to move.

 

[BMonnery]

I think Argentina is very underrated, and IMHO it seemed to get less powerful with every new supplement. What is clear from core 2300AD is Argentina is a major power with a standing similar to, say, Japan. They're one of the old "big six" that dominated space in the 2100's (France, Britain, Bavaria, America, Japan and Argentina).

They have had some pretty hard times though. Looking for the late 19th analogue, they're the Austria of the Great Powers, clearly in decline (or rather they declined and came back), but still powerful. There is however a strong argument that in fighting the Rio Plata Wars, Argentina burnt through a lot of capital and tantalum, something that has stunted her colonial growth (Argentina-Mexico have only three colonies, although the one on Tirane must be pretty big).

When it comes to fleets, I think we often overstate things. As per canon there are only 660 odd stutterwarp equipped warships (a category that includes fighters), and about half those are French. The sheer quantity of treasure needed for even a moderate fleet sees some pretty big players having some pretty small fleets (esp. Japan).

When it comes to innovation, the Argies seem to be at the head of the curve. They haven't got the vast sums of cash and tantalum to build Battleships and Carriers, but I think they'll know that these vessels are not the optimum fighting ship.

The optimum fighting ship is a well designed smaller destroyer, and I can see Argentina abandoning the "me too" approach, and in fact simplifying down to a few smaller types that can be produced in more quantity, being essentially optimised ship killers designed to work off a logistics supply.

The Piedra Buena would be an earlier example of the type, but IMC this vessel was the Espora.

(repost from http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/etranger/message/8262 )

Argentine Piedra Buena and Espora class Frigates

Design Date: 2272
First Example Laid Down: 2272
First Example Completed: 2274
Fleets in Service: Argentina
Number in Service: unknown

The Piedra Buena class was designed as a nuclear
powered raider frigate, but due to the pressures of
the war was completed as an MHD powered vessel.

The Piedra Buena replaced the 20MW fission plant with
a 10MW MHD Turbine, a 2MW solar array (for insystem
cruising) and 1000 tons of fuel. It also has an
attachment point for a fuel tank carrying 7000 tons of
fuel which can be dropped (the tanks cost MLv5.5
each). Normal proceedure was to drop the tank outside
of the FTL shelf, operate insystem, and RV on the way
out, topping of its internal tanks.

Weapons are all facing forward, which caused problems
in battle, as faster vessels could outmaneuver them
and get "on their six". The PB's main long ranged
firepower is 8 EM-5 series missiles. In the later war
period the vulnerable drone was often replaced with a
fighter craft.

Post war, the original design was reverted to, with a
20MW fission plant. This faster vessel is more capable
but more expensive. The first vessel of this type was
the Espora.

Performance

Warp efficiency: Piedra Buena: 0.7 (loaded, with drop
tank), 1.31 (loaded, sans drop tank) or 1.42
(unloaded). Espora: 2.39
Power Plant: 10MW MHD Turbine (PB) or 20MW fission
(Espora)
Fuel: PB: 1000 tons internal, 7000 in drop tank
Range: 7.7 light years
Mass: PB: 2,223.9 tons (unloaded, sans drop tank),
7,330 tons drop tank. Espora: 2,236.7 tons (unloaded)
Cargo Capacity: 1,885 cubic meters
Crew: 56 (18 Bridge, 7 TAC, 16 Engineering, 10 troops,
3 stewards, 2 medical);
Passengers: none
Comfort: 0;
Emergency Power: 1 week
Total Life Support: 56 for 180 days
Cost: MLv17.223 (PB) or 24.323 (Espora), exclusive of
small craft or ordnance

Ship Status Sheet

Move: 2/3 or 6
Screens: none
Radiated Signature: 3(4) or 4(5)
Radial Reflected: 6
Lateral Reflected: 6
Target Computer: +1;
Radial Profile: 0
Lateral Profile: 0
Armour: 1
Hull hits: 36/18/9
Power Plant Hits: 40/8 or 26/6
Active: 7 or 10
Passive: 3 or 10
Other: 2MW solar array, 1 sling

Weapons

1 x3-2dbl PBWS in masked turret (1278)
2 x1dbl lasers in jack turrets (2x 128)

Ordnance Load

8 EM-5D missiles in 2 bays

Vehicles

1 Sling (normally carries a sensor drone, but
sometimes carried fighters or landers)

Sensors and Electronics:

Phased Active-7 or 10
Spherical Passive-3 or 10
Navigation Radar
DSS
Gravitational
3 Fire Control Radars (TTAs)

Crew Hits:
Bridge: Captain, Navigator, Helm, 2 Communications,
4 Computer
TAC: 3 Fire Control, 2 Remote Pilot, Phased Active
Operator, Spherical Passive Operator

Damage Control: 13 (plus 9 spares from bridge)

 

[jcmenal]

I think Argentina is very underrated, and IMHO it seemed to get less powerful with every new supplement. What is clear from core 2300AD is Argentina is a major power with a standing similar to, say, Japan. They're one of the old "big six" that dominated space in the 2100's (France, Britain, Bavaria, America, Japan and Argentina).

They have had some pretty hard times though. Looking for the late 19th analogue, they're the Austria of the Great Powers, clearly in decline (or rather they declined and came back), but still powerful. There is however a strong argument that in fighting the Rio Plata Wars, Argentina burnt through a lot of capital and tantalum, something that has stunted her colonial growth (Argentina-Mexico have only three colonies, although the one on Tirane must be pretty big).

Agreed, to me, Brazil and Argentina should be in the TOP-8 and they are 2 of the most experienced Space Forces in Human Space, specially Argentina, usually outnumbered.

The INAP colonies in Montana and Kwantung are always in jeopardy because the Brazilian and Texan colonies in the same area, the Hispanics should have a significant fleet there, also dont forget the outpost at Minos in middle of the way between the Core and the Latin Finger.

When it comes to fleets, I think we often overstate things. As per canon there are only 660 odd stutterwarp equipped warships (a category that includes fighters), and about half those are French. The sheer quantity of treasure needed for even a moderate fleet sees some pretty big players having some pretty small fleets (esp. Japan).

When it comes to innovation, the Argies seem to be at the head of the curve. They haven't got the vast sums of cash and tantalum to build Battleships and Carriers, but I think they'll know that these vessels are not the optimum fighting ship.

Clearly this is non-cannon, but what about the ships used in the 3rd Rio, where they go?. Another non-cannon issue that I scored is the tantalum deposits in San Martin (now Omicron2 Eridani III), according to the possible "mineral deposits" in the Colonial Atlas.

The use of Battlecruisers and some vessels is becuase some work that I read "Fuerza Espacial Argentina 2303", actually they were 4 Santa Maria Class Battlecruisers. The use of other vessels including the auxiliary carrier is becuase another work, "Ships of the Chinese Arm", I mixed them and added some other ideas.

The optimum fighting ship is a well designed smaller destroyer, and I can see Argentina abandoning the "me too" approach, and in fact simplifying down to a few smaller types that can be produced in more quantity, being essentially optimised ship killers designed to work off a logistics supply.

The Piedra Buena would be an earlier example of the type, but IMC this vessel was the Espora.

I always liked the "Common ESA" concept in Etranger, and Gregory Hunter introduced the INAP designs used by the major Hispanic fleets, where apparently Argentina was in charge to design the large ships and Mexico the small ships including the corvettes.

The use of solar arrays in Corvettes and Cutters is an interesting idea, providing a major autonomy to the escorts and to the system patrols. Hunter used a small SDB, the Fantasma, embarked in the Guajardo, also many INAP fighter that I read had no lasers, just submunitions which is a kwel idea for a colonial/frontier fighter.

The Piedra Buena class was designed as a nuclear
powered raider frigate, but due to the pressures of
the war was completed as an MHD powered vessel.

Post war, the original design was reverted to, with a
20MW fission plant. This faster vessel is more capable
but more expensive. The first vessel of this type was
the Espora.

Well I have read 3 different Espora versions including this one, which it became the concept of the Ushuaia, a frigate based in the Piedrabuena while the Espora is a modern vessel but designed with the "lack" of tantalum in mind. The Guajardo has no such limitations.

There is a "problem" between the Argentine StarCruiser and the current Non-Cannon designs, about 120 years using the same class, while the Europeans had 3 CESAD classes in 20 years, the Hispanics had just two different destroyers in 100 years.

 

[BMonnery]

Going by just "starships", I think nations are looking at about the following force levels (this excludes fighters etc.):

From "Invasion":

France: 60-70 warships
America: about 50 warships
Britain: about 50 warships
Germany: 34 (Germany has no territories or interests outside of the listings, although the odd frigate or two cruising around...)
Ukraine: 8 warships
Japan: 6 warships listed apparently constitute the bulk of their fleet by comments elsewhere (the lack of a home fleet probably means it's based at Tirane?)
Russia: 5 warships

The major unknowns are Manchuria, Brazil and Argentina. These are probably the 5th, 6th and 7th largest fleets. I'd probably peg each of these at 20-30 warships, but we've little evidence for actual force levels, except for them adopting Guerre de Corse strategies....

Oh, and as for Tantalum. Ignore it, you got it from Santa Maria on Tirane. The Colonial Atlas is a major fubar which was corrected in later works (by the GDW last published rule, America has no colony on Tirane, but Argentina does).

When basing fleets, logistics becomes a problem. Warships, expecially those with nuclear or fusion plants, are going to horribly maintenance intensive. This brings us back to the discussion a decade ago of why a lot of frigates are built with commercial components; you can draw maintenance from any orbital terminal rather than a military yard.

For Argentina and Brazil both, they simply don't have the extensive infrastructure to deploy forces that France, Britain or even America does. Hence a relatively large fleet of heavy hitting light combatants makes sense. Argentina especially seems to be squeezing the last vestiges of combat power from their hulls, hence their invention of submunitions.

Actually, logistics is a very ill defined area of SC, but the impact on wars seems to be real enough.

 

[epicenter00]

I've actually always found fleet numbers in 2300 to be extremely suspicious. Even in 2300, which doesn't have the vast civilian merchant marines of 2320, the national navy ships are always very low to me.

A couple of observations:

* Tantalum is a rare earth, but I really don't think it's that rare. If it was so rare that Germany could only have 30-odd starships, nobody would be using it in missiles, and certainly not detonation lasers.

* I simply think the canon navies are simply too small, period. Like BMonnery observed, there's supposed to only be like 660-odd stutterwarp starships in the 2300 era. I'll be the first to admit I've never really looked into the economics of merchant marines and so on, but as a gut feeling 660 ships, including warships and civilian vessels, seems extremely low to me. It feels like it should be about double that.

* Navies, especially in the 18th century mentality that exists in 2300, aren't based simply upon modern conceptions of force projection where they compete with aircraft. In addition, the major method of showing the flag in 2300 would be the starship. Anyone who can't show the flag effectively and quickly is going to see their civilian merchants pushed around. When enough of this happens, they'll build warships. I can imagine "Battleship Agreements" like in the early 20th century where France has treaties with the other powers to keep their fleets in line (with France being the most powerful, of course). But I think German Reunification would have put a spanner in that plan.

* Just say no to ships that have been in service for 150+ years.

Based on these suppositions, without getting into sources like Etranger and quoting from BMonnery's post:

I think the French Navy's ships are about correct, maybe a little more.

America's fleet may be a bit on the large side. I understand that the American fleet is large because a lot of the players are American and don't want the USSF to be some two-bit player, but please. As they share an arm, even amicably, I'd say that Australia's fleet would probably be 70% of America's fleet - the Australians wouldn't want to always be bugging the Americans to protect their shipping and colonies and even if America and Australia are perhaps one of the closest things to friends in 2300, they're still allies. Allies are not your friends; they're your allies. Australian ships would probably be UTES-capable, either home developed with American aid, or bought from the Americans.

Britain and Germany would have about the same number of warships, with Germany trailing slightly behind. British national pride would require them to have a large fleet, even if a lot of these ships are older and spend a lot of their time semi-mothballed (at least before the Kafer war). Germany wouldn't be content with 30-odd ships. They share an Arm with an unfriendly France - they'd be looking for warship parity with France, even if it bankrupts them. There's no Scapa Flow to keep the Germans penned in this time.

I've always played Japan's navy as large, much much larger. In 2300's write-ups, Japan is described as being insular and sort of unfriendly, like some semi-Tokugawa state. Yet, at the same time, Japan apparently does a lot of trade with the world. Six ships is like modern JSDF numbers where they can assume the Americans will help them. In 2300, no such arrangement exists. I'd imagine Japanese fleet numbers at like 15-20. They'd probably be UTES-capable ships, either homegrown or in exchange for Japanese aid during the CAW from France.

Argentina, Brazil, Manchuria. All three of these navies would be necessarily large. I think they're all sort of ignored because most people (ie; Americans and Europeans) simply find it hard to imagine a world where these nations are powerful.

It'd seem that Manchuria probably got kicked around by the French Navy and her allies during the Central Asian War, mostly reduced to u-boat tactics. I'd imagine since then, Manchuria would have made rebuilding its fleet a top priority. Manchuria would probably be planning a fleet around 40-50 ships and replacing older ships with new ones or upgrading them at the very least. I've always assumed the Manchurians are the most willing to adopt new naval ideas and concepts of all of starfaring nations - they'd be another power that developed a UTES system. In my campaign Manchuria was forced to accept some humiliating "Versailles" treaty (this is France we're talking about) at the end of the CAW which limits their space fleet. As a result, Manchuria might have some interesting "armored merchants." Imagine merchants with suspiciously advanced targeting arrays, power systems, armor, and screens that give them warship performance. These ships can be converted into warships given a month's notice by removing "cargo pallets" (which allow them to be consider merchantmen - I'd imagine they'd look like Mammoths with the containers on the outside to obscure the shape of the warship underneath) and replacing them with weapons fits (which are already prepackaged and ready to go at Manchurian deep space depots and could probably be turned around in a few days by skilled technicians but usually a week to ensure proper testing - the month is to ensure the ships and weapons packs could be at the depots). The removal of the cargo pallets increases their agility and warp efficiency to fast CG performance levels. When the Kafer war was getting really desperate, the Manchurians showed up with their "Shadow Fleet" which was much appreciated by most nations, but scared the hell out of the French who had underestimated Manchuria's new navy.

Argentina and Brazil (and to a lesser extent, Mexico) would have decent-sized navies. The Chinese Arm has the potential to become very volatile. Brazil vs. Argentina / Mexico has happened more than once. All of these powers are going to expand their navies if Manchuria does. I can't really give numbers, but I think BMonnery's numbers are about right. All three navies might actually be moving away from "small navies of large ships" and going more for smaller "raider" style missile cruisers more suited to escort duties, saving a few older, larger hulls for brinkmanship games.

Ukraine, Russia, Canton, Azania, Canada are the real unknowns. Ukraine, I suspect had some writer with ancestry at GDW - their fleet seems unusually large. I haven't a clue why Russia has a navy in 2300, but they do have a "National Pride Spacefleet." These guys all would have some fleet presence, perhaps not large and not exactly up to date, but they'd have some presence, if just to keep the people they share their Arms with honest.

 

[BMonnery]

The number of starships was decided back on gENIE in 1990. Evan Powles had an archive of the posts. Depending on how you read things about 3,300 or 10,000 stutterwarp equipped vessels are in existence (the text of the published gets vague on "insystem ships", whether they're stutterwarp or not).

I tried to use 3,300 to work out the frequency of starship arrivals at various ports, using a weighted model. The result is at: http://www.geocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/2300/ShipArr.html

We have some pretty good baseline strengths for some nations. The most complete being the US. I've tried to track all canon and psuedo-canon US warships here: http://www.etranger.org.uk/2300/NorthAmerica/US/BMUSSF/ussf/USSF.htm

These sources I got:

1 Columbia class Battleship (and 2 Building)
3 Providence class Heavy Cruisers
9 Kennedy class Light Cruisers
4 Fort Knox class Destroyers
10 Bunker Hill class Destroyers
? Aconit class Frigates (very few)
3 Hancock class Frigates
9 Cayuga class Frigates
20 Hampton class Corvettes
? Concord class Corvettes (I assume these are old and a very small number)
(The fighter arm is apparently very small

A few more warships than I thought, but this is a pretty conclusive list, and includes a very sizable "reserve fleet" which gives the USSF a different character.

Ships of the French Arm notes the French Arm is far more militarised than the other two arms.

The Japanese Fleet at Joi is prettymuch a squadron of the French Fleet, in a similar arrangement with todays US Fleet, although with the French departure they ended up cooperating with the German Bavaria BG who'd they been preparing to fight for years. They have French designed ships (the flag is a Suffren...).

Ukraine's large fleet seems to have really been an extension of French policy. Ukraine has no merchant marine (their trade and colonisation of Aurore was carried on French ("ESA") hulls), and IMHO (although I lost the argument) the Ukrainians simply got French hand me downs.

 

[Duke Pellinor]

2320AD Wiki: Argentina

There seems to be interest in Argentina, perhaps you might like to utlise and expand upon this page here. I am in the process of creating a suitable navigation topic box for the bottom of the page that will link to things like national defence forces. Perhaps some of the ship designs could be included in their own pages. Please come and contribute. I'm looking to get a player generated material as the bulk of articles in the wiki like the excellent Pentapod's world and Etranger sites.