PathfinderAP
SOC-12
Why would it do that? (its not using an improbability drive?)
Wa?, Why?
Yes, I see.....nurse the injection please
FTL Drives other than Jump Drive
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Why would it do that? (its not using an improbability drive?)
Wa?, Why?
Yes, I see.....nurse the injection please
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Hmm, I like this, a sort of Jump Drive amplifier; the wormhole causes Jump-space instability - a path of least resistance - and once you enter Jump-space within that area you automatically follow the path created by the wormhole instead of the path your much weaker Jump Drive wants to create.
Very, very, very rare, though. You'll only ever find one. Just hope your ship has fuel for 2 jumps, though, cos if the other end is in intergalactic space...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
IMTU grandfather didn't discover the jump drive and jump space - he created jump space in the first place and developed the jump drive as a way to access it.
This came about because of the sidebar in MT that explains the first starfarers travelled stl, but I decided one of these early races had a psionic based drive that allowed them to hop very quickly from place to place.
It was studying this race that lead grandfather to building the device that generated jumpspace which travelled as a bubble at the speed of light from its point of origin. By the time of CT jump space is galaxy spanning.
Grandfather also developed the jump tunnel generators that allow up to j36 but require a significant mass to work - thank the T4 adventure for that one.
The reason for the empress wave IMTU is that the jump space bubble that grandfather generated all those thousands of years ago is now being undone by baddies from across the galaxy who have decided to undo grandfathers work.
Once the empress wave has passed jump drive cease working. Find another way to travel.
High c is one possibility - although the ship crews don't notice the passage of time so much in the rest of the universe does.
The stutterwarp from T2300 could be developed.
Psionic teleportation based drives could be developed that require a powerful psion to be wired into the ship and have their abilities boosted.
Gravity manipulation could allow wormhole based travel or a ST-like warp drive to be developed.
The other possibility is that grandfather just uses his jump bubble device again (if he can be bothered to) and also launches an offensive against the race that generated the empress wave.
All good fun for the future of MTU.
This came about because of the sidebar in MT that explains the first starfarers travelled stl, but I decided one of these early races had a psionic based drive that allowed them to hop very quickly from place to place.
It was studying this race that lead grandfather to building the device that generated jumpspace which travelled as a bubble at the speed of light from its point of origin. By the time of CT jump space is galaxy spanning.
Grandfather also developed the jump tunnel generators that allow up to j36 but require a significant mass to work - thank the T4 adventure for that one.
The reason for the empress wave IMTU is that the jump space bubble that grandfather generated all those thousands of years ago is now being undone by baddies from across the galaxy who have decided to undo grandfathers work.
Once the empress wave has passed jump drive cease working. Find another way to travel.
High c is one possibility - although the ship crews don't notice the passage of time so much in the rest of the universe does.
The stutterwarp from T2300 could be developed.
Psionic teleportation based drives could be developed that require a powerful psion to be wired into the ship and have their abilities boosted.
Gravity manipulation could allow wormhole based travel or a ST-like warp drive to be developed.
The other possibility is that grandfather just uses his jump bubble device again (if he can be bothered to) and also launches an offensive against the race that generated the empress wave.
All good fun for the future of MTU.
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PathfinderAP
SOC-12
What possible reason would it have to work that way?
PathfinderAP
SOC-12
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
It wasn't described as a teleport-based function... more a telekinesis-related one, and it boosted the existing drive, not moved the ship by itself.
Your "boost" is from the ship, and applied purely to the psi actors, to boost their power... the psi isn't boosting the ship's drives.
Distance traveled is directly proportional to the time the drive is activated... the first example in the book is "2 light-seconds, we only operated it for 28 seconds".
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Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Cos it makes a good plot device.
Things don't need a reason to work the way the GM wants - they need a reason not to work the way the GM wants.
If you want to explain some law of physics that says wormholes wouldn't do that, I'll listen cos I like my games to obey the Laws where feasible.
Otherwise, it's as good an idea as any. It's a game; it's for fun.
PathfinderAP
SOC-12
Your point being?
PathfinderAP
SOC-12
Handwavium, I've heard of that in Star Wars...lol
But if you "don't need a reason to work the way the GM wants"
the "reason not to work the way the GM wants" becomes irrelative,
The GM gets what he wants, you don't need reason
If you want to explain some law of physics that says wormholes wouldn't do that, I'll listen cos I like my games to obey the Laws where feasible.
Otherwise, it's as good an idea as any. It's a game; it's for fun.
Outside of all the Improbability
Well, wormhole are just tunnels, they wouldn't have a 1G pull,
(even if there was some sort of mass on the other end of the tunnel trying to cause it, because chances are the same gravity would help destablize it)
the only way you could jump and end up where you started was if you came out of jump at your destination then passed through it, going back, (massive Improbability, but not impossible)
You are not in normal space while in Jump, the part of the wormhole that you pass through in using for travel is in normal space,
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
It's found a lot in Traveller, too.
To a point. However, assuming the GM is 'reasonable' and wants to ground his game in at least a semblance of reality, he won't want to stray too far from physics.
I'd rather have this physical wormhole than a 'psionic thought-warp' or a disembodied hand that drags a ship through time...
There's handwavium and there's handwavium.
Well yeah, that's pretty much how I figured it - the 1G pull was a part of Aramis' idea that I chose not to pursue, though presumably the mass-energy that created the wormhole would have some gravitational effect - probably considerable.
To reiterate: a wormhole is such a huge handwave that I'd only use it as a game device once, if ever, but if I did, the Jump-amplifier is probably the way I'd go, as it's a neat explanation for the phenomenon that works as well as anything else.
Only reason I'd give it a gravity pull is so players get sucked in, but have the ability to avoid that fate by action on their part; the gravity only present when active.... and also to revome the fuel source simultaneously...
it's the EvilGM part of it... Go through with the fuel... or be stranded.
it's the EvilGM part of it... Go through with the fuel... or be stranded.
PathfinderAP
SOC-12
It's found a lot in Traveller, too.
Yeah, but to be fair its only in Traveller in small amounts compared to Star Wars, which is made up of nothing but Handwavium,
No, not at all, gravity applied in the wrong way could help it to collapse,
My idea was to use artificial gravity to balance out and stabilize the wormhole, (and maybe open up the wromhole),
IRL, theory suggests that most wormholes will be microscopic, and have a very short life,
Wormholes would seem to be possible so not that big a handwave,
Wormholes are about the only non-handwavium FTL travel technique (under current theories). A stable wormhole large enoough to pass a starship just needs some negative matter to keep it open. Getting or making it I'd imagine would be very hard.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
How are wormholes not Handwavium? There is no evidence that they exist. And Negative matter? Especially stable negative matter? Good luck with that.
How the Boring Drive? It has large screw propeller and makes a tunnel through the Ether? Seriously now... The presence of particles and forms of energy that exist beyond the Heliosphere is a virtual unknown. Perhaps, if there was a way of tapping into those forms of energy one could ride between the stars on gravatic bubbles.
Did Asimov not posit a universal gravity drive that allows for the near simultaneous travel through his concept of hyperspace powered by the micro gravity fluctuations of the galaxy...makes the Jump Drive look positively scientific doesn't it?
Did Asimov not posit a universal gravity drive that allows for the near simultaneous travel through his concept of hyperspace powered by the micro gravity fluctuations of the galaxy...makes the Jump Drive look positively scientific doesn't it?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Whatever means you choose to allow ftl travel IYTU it will always be science fiction.
Real world physics and engineering are incapable of coming up with a practical solution, all we have are wild theories and what if speculation.
FTL travel will always be the big handwave in a sci-fi setting - using psudoscientific babble to explain it adds colour but doesn't make any chosen method better than any other.
A rough rule of thumb I've read is that hard sci fi only breaks with one law of physics. T2300 had the stutterwarp and that was just about it. (Although personal laser weapons, plasma guns, even fusion power plants could be argued about).
Let's face it the OTU is verging on a science fantasy setting in comparison - jump drive, artificial gravity, magic maneuver drives, acceleration compensators, grav focused lasers, psionics etc.
Given the OTU's inclusion of the latter then some sort of psionic based ftl drive is probably the most setting valid IMHO.
Real world physics and engineering are incapable of coming up with a practical solution, all we have are wild theories and what if speculation.
FTL travel will always be the big handwave in a sci-fi setting - using psudoscientific babble to explain it adds colour but doesn't make any chosen method better than any other.
A rough rule of thumb I've read is that hard sci fi only breaks with one law of physics. T2300 had the stutterwarp and that was just about it. (Although personal laser weapons, plasma guns, even fusion power plants could be argued about).
Let's face it the OTU is verging on a science fantasy setting in comparison - jump drive, artificial gravity, magic maneuver drives, acceleration compensators, grav focused lasers, psionics etc.
Given the OTU's inclusion of the latter then some sort of psionic based ftl drive is probably the most setting valid IMHO.
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For me, if I were to avoid the crime of handwavium. I do believe in the postulate that there are higher dimensions than our own. This is the realm of hyperspace. It is a wild and chaotic realm. In which matter from our universe, if unprotected, will be torn asunder. The protection is the generation and projection of a field that must use enormous amounts of power. However, gravity wells do interfere with the fields within hyperspace. Thus, providing exits. But, one still has to safely punch their way through.
Where I employ handwavium, it was the Ancients (however, you define them) who chartered and made safe the jump routes before their technology could overcome those barriers and transverse hyperspace outside the routes.
If all this sounds familiar, it ought to...for that is why Traveller is called the Second Age of Sail. So whatever, handwavium, I employ it does fall into the realm of working with these simple postulates and real world engineering will back me up.
Where I employ handwavium, it was the Ancients (however, you define them) who chartered and made safe the jump routes before their technology could overcome those barriers and transverse hyperspace outside the routes.
If all this sounds familiar, it ought to...for that is why Traveller is called the Second Age of Sail. So whatever, handwavium, I employ it does fall into the realm of working with these simple postulates and real world engineering will back me up.
They are not handwavium in that the current physical theories allow their existance, i.e., they do not contradict the known laws of physics. The same theories pedicted many things that were subsequently confirmed by observation. Negative matter is also a theoretical possibility, and antimatter may have negative mattery properties (but I'm not sure if the CERN experiment on this has been conducted yet), albiet very, very small. Accordingly, wormholes are in the realm of unobtainium at the moment and not handwavium.
I'm just saying, if your going to postulate a FTL drive (which I think you must for an interstellar sci fi game) ones that use wormholes are the most "realistic" of the lot.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Yes the existence of Ant-matter can be demonstrated, but not a way to contain it. (Some theories exist, but AFAIK none of them work.) So I will grant Anti-Matter as Unobtainium. Negative matter is a different concept, and pure science fiction.They are not handwavium in that the current physical theories allow their existance, i.e., they do not contradict the known laws of physics. The same theories pedicted many things that were subsequently confirmed by observation. Negative matter is also a theoretical possibility, and antimatter may have negative mattery properties (but I'm not sure if the CERN experiment on this has been conducted yet), albiet very, very small. Accordingly, wormholes are in the realm of unobtainium at the moment and not handwavium.
I'm just saying, if your going to postulate a FTL drive (which I think you must for an interstellar sci fi game) ones that use wormholes are the most "realistic" of the lot.
The concept of Wormholes may have some theoretical physics theories outside of science fiction there is nothing I have seen that says these theories are any more accurate than the concept of Hyper space, Warp Space, Fold Space, Jump Drives or any other FTL drive. If you have such a source please link it. (And actually some of the physics for Hyper space have been discussed and some of the math worked out.)
Further I have definitely seen nothing that suggests stable wormholes or even a concept, that if they exist, they can be traveled, predicted, or lead to useful destination, or that they can be prevalent enough to actually allow practical space travel.
So this is just as much handwavium as any other FTL method.
