Frieght charges IMTU

[Proneutron]

I can't take credit for this. Found it on some Trav forum over the last couple of decades. Maybe even this one.

Cost per parsec/ Dton

Shipping
Charge

1,000
1,600
2,100
2,500
2,800
3,100

 

[Timerover51]

Is it safe to assume that these are the shipping charges going from a Jump-1 to a Jump-6 capable ship?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Cost per parsec/ Dton

Do you really mean per parsec, not per jump?

If so, high jump ships will be extremely profitable...

Example:
J-1 ship charges kCr 1 per Dton per jump.
J-2 ship charges kCr 1.6 × 2 = kCr 3.2 per Dton per jump.
The J-2 ship will be much, much more profitable than the J-1 ship, hence low jump ships will be rare...

 

[Proneutron]

Do you really mean per parsec, not per jump?

Per parsec in one jump. If there are no ships capable of going that far in one jump the freight shipper would have to negotiate with a ship for multiple jumps. Supply and demand. Mostly an issue with planets not on the main trade routes. With only a fraction of the available cargo space compared to a J-1 ship plus the added costs of larger J-drive and PP I don't see it being much more profitable than a J-1 Free trader.

 

[Proneutron]

Is it safe to assume that these are the shipping charges going from a Jump-1 to a Jump-6 capable ship?

They are for how many parsecs the carrying ship is taking the freight in one jump. So a J2 capable ship can take freight for a destination that is only 1 parsec away and charges the 1 parsec rate.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

With only a fraction of the available cargo space compared to a J-1 ship plus the added costs of larger J-drive and PP I don't see it being much more profitable than a J-1 Free trader.

Take a simple ship J-1 cargo carrier:

MT-A611121-000000-00000-0        MCr 298       1 000 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=5
batteries                                           TL=12
                       Cargo=767 Fuel=110 EP=10 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                  767       297,5
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A         1000            
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                     80  
Scoops              Streamlined                               1  
                                                                 
Jump Drive                             1    1      20        80  
Manoeuvre D                            1    1      20        30  
Power Plant                            1    1      30        90  
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-1, 4 weeks            1     110            
Purifier                                    1       6         0,0
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1      20         5  
Computer            m/2                2    1       2         9  
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  5      20         2,5
                                                                 
Cargo                                             767            
                                                                 
Empty hardpoint                             5       5            
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 297,53           Sum:     767       297,5
Class Cost          MCr  62,48          Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 238,02                                   
                                                                 
                                                                 
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                  
Bank                Cr 595 060          High           Cr       0
Fuel                Cr  11 000          Middle         Cr       0
Life Support        Cr  10 000          Low            Cr       0
Salaries            Cr  10 080          Cargo          Cr 612 000  (@ kCr 1/Dton/jump)
Maintenance         Cr  11 901                                   
Berthing            Cr   1 000                                   
                                                                 
Summa              kCr     639                        kCr     612
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr -27                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     -1,1%

Not very profitable, loses kCr 27 per jump.



Change to J-2:

MT-A621221-000000-00000-0        MCr 429       1 000 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=7
batteries                                           TL=12
                       Cargo=608 Fuel=220 EP=20 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                    608       429
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 000          
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                       80
Scoops              Streamlined                                 1
                                                                 
Jump Drive                             2    1        30       120
Manoeuvre D                            1    1        20        30
Power Plant                            2    1        60       180
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2       220          
Purifier                                    1         7         0
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1        20         5
Computer            m/2                2    1         2         9
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  7        28         4
                                                                 
Cargo                                               608          
                                                                 
Empty hardpoint                             5         5          
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 428,54           Sum:       608       429
Class Cost          MCr  89,99          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 342,83                                   
                                                                 
                                                                 
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                  
Bank                Cr 857 080          High         Cr         0
Fuel                Cr  22 000          Middle       Cr         0
Life Support        Cr  14 000          Low          Cr         0
Salaries            Cr  13 920          Cargo        Cr 1 548 800  (@ kCr 3,2/Dton/jump)
Maintenance         Cr  17 142                                   
Berthing            Cr   1 000                                   
                                                                 
Summa              kCr     925                      kCr     1 549
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr 624                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     17,3%

Suddenly very profitable, making kCr 624 per jump.



Make it J-4:

MT-A641441-000000-00000-0        MCr 590       1 000 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=8
batteries                                           TL=13
                       Cargo=338 Fuel=440 EP=40 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                    338       590
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 000          
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                       80
Scoops              Streamlined                                 1
                                                                 
Jump Drive                             4    1        50       200
Manoeuvre D                            1    1        20        30
Power Plant                            4    1        80       240
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4       440          
Purifier                                    1        11         0
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1        20         5
Computer            m/4                4    1         4        30
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  8        32         4
                                                                 
Cargo                                               338          
                                                                 
Empty hardpoint                             5         5          
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 590,07           Sum:       338       590
Class Cost          MCr 123,91          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 472,06                                   
                                                                 
                                                                 
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                  
Bank              Cr 1 180 140          High         Cr         0
Fuel              Cr    44 000          Middle       Cr         0
Life Support      Cr    16 000          Low          Cr         0
Salaries          Cr    15 840          Cargo        Cr 2 680 000  (@ kCr 10/Dton/jump)
Maintenance       Cr    23 603                                   
Berthing          Cr     1 000                                   
                                                                 
Summa            kCr     1 281                      kCr     2 680
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr 1 399                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     28,2%

Now it is extremely profitable, making kCr 1399 per jump.


Conclusion: You are overcompensating for higher jump.

 

[Proneutron]

Conclusion: You are overcompensating for higher jump.

Compared to the bankrupt J1 ship I guess. :rofl: Unless your life's ambition is to be in debtors prison. Otherwise, the rates are fine and allow for profit. The goal of most businesses.

 

[BRover]

Take a simple ship J-1 cargo carrier:

MT-A611121-000000-00000-0        MCr 298       1 000 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=5
batteries                                           TL=12
                       Cargo=767 Fuel=110 EP=10 Agility=1

. . .                                                            
Summa              kCr     639                        kCr     612
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr -27                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     -1,1%

Not very profitable, loses kCr 27 per jump.



Change to J-2:

MT-A621221-000000-00000-0        MCr 429       1 000 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=7
batteries                                           TL=12
                       Cargo=608 Fuel=220 EP=20 Agility=1

. . .
Summa              kCr     925                      kCr     1 549
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr 624                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     17,3%

Suddenly very profitable, making kCr 624 per jump.

. . .

This J-1 analysis reminds me of the brothers who were hauling hay bales. Bought the hay at $2000 per half-ton bale, sold them 100 miles away at $1600 per bale. After a few trips with no profit, they stopped to figure out the problem. So, the very next day, they bought themselves a bigger truck!

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Compared to the bankrupt J1 ship I guess. :rofl: Unless your life's ambition is to be in debtors prison. Otherwise, the rates are fine and allow for profit. The goal of most businesses.

It was just the simplest possible test ship. If we work it we can easily make a better ship that is profitable at J-1.


Example:

MT-B611122-000000-00000-0        MCr 466       2 700 Dton    Ag=1
MT-C611122-000000-00000-0        MCr 466       3 000 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=21
batteries                                           TL=12
             Cargo=2385 Fuel=10 EP=27 Agility=0 DropT=300

Single Occupancy                                  2 386       582
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             B          2 700          
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      216
Scoops              Streamlined                                 3
                                                                 
Drop Tanks          300 Dton                                    0
Total tonnage       3 000 Dton                                   
                                                                 
Jump Drive          Q                  1    1        80       150
Manoeuvre D         Q                  1    1        29        60
Power Plant         Q                  1    1        46       120
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-1, 4 weeks            1        10          
Purifier                                    1         9         0
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1        54        14
Computer            m/2                2    1         2         9
                                                                 
Staterooms                                 21        84        11
                                                                 
Cargo                                             2 386          
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 582,06           Sum:     2 386       582
Class Cost          MCr 122,23          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 465,65                                   
                                                                 
                                                                 
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                  
Bank                Cr 931 296          High         Cr         0
Fuel                Cr  31 000          Middle       Cr         0
Life Support        Cr  42 000          Low          Cr         0
Salaries            Cr  40 800          Cargo        Cr 1 908 000  (@ kCr 1/Dton/jump)
Maintenance         Cr  18 626                                   
Berthing            Cr   2 700                                   
                                                                 
Summa              kCr   1 066                      kCr     1 908
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr 842                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     22,6%

Quite profitable...



Now make it J4:

MT-A646642-000000-00000-0        MCr 579       1 800 Dton    Ag=5
MT-C644442-000000-00000-0        MCr 579       3 000 Dton
bearing                                           Crew=19
batteries                                           TL=12
           Cargo=1341 Fuel=60 EP=108 Agility=3 DropT=1200

Single Occupancy                                  1 341       724
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             A          1 800          
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      144
Scoops              Streamlined                                 2
                                                                 
Drop Tanks          1 200 Dton                                  1
Total tonnage       3 000 Dton                                   
                                                                 
Jump Drive          Z                  4    1       125       240
Manoeuvre D         Z                  4    1        47        96
Power Plant         Z                  4    1        73       192
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4        60          
Purifier                                    1        38         0
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1        36         9
Computer            m/4                4    1         4        30
                                                                 
Staterooms                                 19        76        10
                                                                 
Cargo                                             1 341          
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 723,71           Sum:     1 341       724
Class Cost          MCr 151,98          Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 578,97                                   
                                                                 
                                                                 
Estimated Economy of Ship     Standard                                     
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
       MCr 578,97      kCr 115 794        kCr 2 412              80%
                                                                 
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                  
Bank              Cr 1 157 936          High        Cr          0
Fuel              Cr   126 000          Middle      Cr          0
Life Support      Cr    38 000          Low         Cr          0
Salaries          Cr    38 400          Cargo       Cr 10 720 000  (@ kCr 10/Dton/jump)
Maintenance       Cr    23 159                                   
Berthing          Cr     1 800                                   
                                                                 
Summa            kCr     1 385                     kCr     10 720
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr 9 335                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     201,5%

Ridiculously profitable at MCr 9 per jump it can earn back the down-payment in 6 months or the entire cost of the ship in 2-3 years on freight alone.

kCr 10 per Dton per jump is way too much for J-4, kCr 2-2.5 might be reasonable IMHO.

But, of course, it is YTU...

 

[Proneutron]

It was just the simplest possible test ship. If we work it we can easily make a better ship that is profitable at J-1...

I hope so otherwise no one would build a freighter of that size.

 

[Grav_Moped]

As a minimum, cargo rates should cover the capital and operations cost of the most efficient available ship capable of making a particular trip. Also, assuming efficient markets, they shouldn't be much higher than that except where a risk premium is appropriate. (The Traveller trading rules ignore this.) If the markets are not efficient due to under-supply of shipping (say, a pair of worlds at J-4 distance that doesn't generate enough cargo to fill the most-efficient-available ship profitably), higher rates are justifiable.

Basically, "the most efficient available ship" will set the baseline rates. This has two components: "most efficient" and "available".

In a "Both/And" (LBB2 & LBB5) universe, this means that available Tech Level will be a significant cost driver at higher Jump Numbers. This is because the LBB2 ships needed for Jump Numbers higher than "local" (subsector?) TL enables under LBB5 have very little payload due to their limited tonnage and LBB2's penalties on smaller ships (non-proportional power plant fuel requirements and the minimum bridge size).

If the "local" TL doesn't support a particular Jn, it will have to be provided (if it is -- it's entirely possible for costs to exceed any possible profit on a route) from the nearest world that can support it. In that case, rates will be higher to account for the lost income during transit to and from their "home port" for annual overhauls.


The other side of this is the demand for time-sensitive shipping. If a cargo can take 3 weeks to get to its destination (within, say, a 6 parsec radius), there's no point in paying extra for anything above Jump-3. Non-cryo passengers might be time-sensitive, especially VIPs. Perishable cargo might be, but then there's the question of profitability.

 

[Condottiere]

Since we are in the age of sail analogue, clipper ships were built for the China tea trade, as the first one back could usually demand higher rates, maybe because the goods were fresher.

I suppose you could do that for bananas as well.

Of course, clipperesque ships had an earlier origin, and were also used for the opium trade. I would guess it's both a case of outrunning anything that wanted to catch it, and possibly a quicker return on investment on the cargo.

 

[BRover]

Since we are in the age of sail analogue, clipper ships were built for the China tea trade, as the first one back could usually demand higher rates, maybe because the goods were fresher.

I suppose you could do that for bananas as well.

Of course, clipperesque ships had an earlier origin, and were also used for the opium trade. I would guess it's both a case of outrunning anything that wanted to catch it, and possibly a quicker return on investment on the cargo.

As I understand clippers, not so much freshness, but being first--having product to sell when nobody else did and when local supplies were depleted after a year (more or less) since the last harvest was available.

 

[whartung]

I hope so otherwise no one would build a freighter of that size.

the point being is "who wouldn't make a freighter that size".

With "profits" like this, "everyone" would be in on this. And any owner of a ship would have enough socked away in a short time to put the down payment on another ship, and another.

30-50% net margin is REALLY GOOD for any business. 30% is a benchmark for a small restaurant, for example. Meaning, if they do $100K in business in a year, the owner takes home $30K.

But restaurants aren't freight.

There is a huge drive to crush margins on freight (since it's a "tax" on all goods), cheaper freight is better freight.

So, freight is a notoriously low margin business.

These returns are "munchkin" returns.

 

[mike wightman]

The CT trade rules were never meant to model a full economic system. They were intended to be a minigame such that a small tramp trader could get by with an occasional speculative trade to make ends meet, and in the event of a big score from speculative trading pay off the mortgage.

Once the mortgage is paid off in full you will have a hard job keeping your merchant crew poor...

In the long term you make speculative trading the norm - you need a good few MCr hidden under the gravbunk as seed money for this. Find a lucrative group of worlds where you can play the trade codes game and you will soon have enough capital to buy another ship, or better yet a jump 2 ship. Why jump 2? More chance of being able to play the trade codes game.
Higher jump numbers may reduce your cargo capacity, but if your entire cargo hold is stuffed with low tonnage but valuable goods you keep making money.

Freight is for the megacorporations to shift in bulk - the freight that ethically challenged merchants get to transport are the leftovers, and you don't get rich from that.

 

[Proneutron]

Since we are in the age of sail analogue, clipper ships were built for the China tea trade, as the first one back could usually demand higher rates, maybe because the goods were fresher.

Freshness had nothing to do with it. It was simply supply and demand. Demand was ferocious and with ship to shore comm no one knew when the next ship would arrive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Tea_Race_of_1866

 

[Proneutron]

The CT trade rules were never meant to model a full economic system. They were intended to be a minigame such that a small tramp trader could get by with an occasional speculative trade to make ends meet, and in the event of a big score from speculative trading pay off the mortgage.

Yes, I know. I've been playing since '78. Spec trading I don't do in my game because players don't want to play around for many months on a single planet trying to get deep enough into the trade scene to realistically pull off a "coup" with insanely low priced valuable goods. Mine is a game of adventure not trading. Freight is picked up for hand to mouth existence. Finding enough freight on a backwater for a planet 6 parsecs away to fill your hold is rare.

 

[welsh]

The trade rules are basically broken, and always were. Arbitrary rates for both passengers and freight to keep things simple, and I think the whole thing was really designed around the good old Free Trader.

I favour freight-per-parsec but there are other considerations (and honestly I just fudge it because I want a game of adventure not trading, too).

If we are looking at three worlds on a jump-1 main, named Hitech, Backwater, and Goodmarket, a Far Trader might charge 2000/dton (freight per parsec) to jump from Hitech to Goodmarket but a Free Trader might seek to undercut that at 1600/dton, and still pay the bills: knowing you have a full hold for the second jump from Backwater to Goodmarket trumps a part load to Backwater and an empty hold on the second jump, so cutting your rate to fill the hold makes sense.

At the same time, a Far Trader might carry some goods at 2400/dton from Timesensitive to Needitnow.

Meanwhile freight to the critical outpost at Nobodygoeshere might be astronomical: they need to be supplied and it costs what it costs.

There are all kinds of cases like this that the rules simply can't model without becoming unpleasantly complex. I haven't yet found trade rules that weren't broken in some way.

 

[Proneutron]

The trade rules are basically broken, and always were. Arbitrary rates for both passengers and freight to keep things simple, and I think the whole thing was really designed around the good old Free Trader.

I favour freight-per-parsec but there are other considerations (and honestly I just fudge it because I want a game of adventure not trading, too).
...

You do it like I do. Based on what would be market forces. IMG there isn't one huge feudal gov controlling most of space trying to distort market forces.

 

[coliver988]

The trade rules are basically broken, and always were. Arbitrary rates for both passengers and freight to keep things simple, and I think the whole thing was really designed around the good old Free Trader.

I favour freight-per-parsec but there are other considerations (and honestly I just fudge it because I want a game of adventure not trading, too).

If we are looking at three worlds on a jump-1 main, named Hitech, Backwater, and Goodmarket, a Far Trader might charge 2000/dton (freight per parsec) to jump from Hitech to Goodmarket but a Free Trader might seek to undercut that at 1600/dton, and still pay the bills: knowing you have a full hold for the second jump from Backwater to Goodmarket trumps a part load to Backwater and an empty hold on the second jump, so cutting your rate to fill the hold makes sense.

At the same time, a Far Trader might carry some goods at 2400/dton from Timesensitive to Needitnow.

Meanwhile freight to the critical outpost at Nobodygoeshere might be astronomical: they need to be supplied and it costs what it costs.

There are all kinds of cases like this that the rules simply can't model without becoming unpleasantly complex. I haven't yet found trade rules that weren't broken in some way.

some good points. I sort of look at the "it costs what is costs" as inverting the speculative trade process: someone is willing to pay a lot to get stuff where it needs to go in a specific time frame to Nobodygoes there. Now honestly this is really GM fiat to move the game perhaps, but as you point out: the real world (and even the world of OTU) there will be market forces that will override the default freight costs.

And the same for passage: if someone really needs to get from Trouble to Homefree, they will be willing to pay above and beyond the standard rates.

This is essentially the adventure in either case, and possibly one of the reasons the costs are detailed as they are: to give impetus to go beyond those for adventure. Otherwise you are just a trucker in space.