Free movement of citizens?

[SJWaldock]

As the Third Imperium is dedicated to free trade, what is the position on the movement of people? Can an Imperial Citizen, if he, she or it has the money for a ticket get on a ship, or could a local world government decide that they couldn't? Is movement as free as trade?

 

[fredofmars]

If the person is already inside the extrality line they should be able to get a ticket on a ship without problem. If they are still outside the extrality line, the local world government might care enough to stop their movement. Extradition of someone already in the starport would have to be handled between the local world government and the starport administrator. I suspect it would usually only happen in cases where the individual committed an act that would be viewed as criminal at the Imperial level as well as the local level (murder, treason against the Imperium, etc.).

 

[kaladorn]

IMTU:
There are people who live in Imperial Space and Imperial Citizens. The former comprise a lot of planets on which the Empire has a starport, and which they collect taxes from, but whose citizenry is still considered a 'Citizen of Planet X'. Thus, they travel at the behest or sufferance of local authority. A true Imperial Citizen is one of those special beasts that owes sovereignty to no potentate other than the Emperor. He travels where he wills... and if a government gives him grief and word gets out, there are likely to be some questions asked.

But that's just IMTU.

 

[The Oz]

You know, you could set up something like that as a really nice perk for a character during character generation. If they roll right, they could become "Imperial Citizens" who gain certain rights, privileges and responsibilities. It might only be available in certain careers and only under hard-to-get circumstances, but it'd be a nice touch. Kind of like being able to say "Civis Romanum sum" (I am a citizen of Rome) in the early days of the Empire.

 

[RainOfSteel]

I keep imagining to myself that somewhere out there amongst the high shelves of the canon, that this is actually discussed. But I've never managed to relocate what I thought I'd read back in the early 80s.

 

[robject]

Good question. On the one hand, worlds are free to manage their own affairs. Regardless of how many Imperial nobles are on a world, the world still has its own government type... but still the nobility runs things, don't they? Or do they? What is the relationship between nobles and world government?

 

[aramis]

IMTU, the subject/Citizen distinction is also relevant.

Service in the Imperial Military, holding an Imperial Patent of Nobility or Knighthood, or service in certain profesions is going to earn a citizen's rights...
(In short, Other, Rogue, Barbarian don't. Bureau, Pirate, and several others might. Scouts, Merchants, Army, Navy, Marines, Flyers, Nobles and Sailors do automatically, at conclusion of 1st term. Doctor and Scientist do after special duty.)

Then again, IMTU, fiefs are the starports, so it's appealable to the noble to go over the Starport Admin's head.

 

[flykiller]

Is movement as free as trade?

do you mean officially as per canon, or do you mean how do various referees do this in their games?

 

[RainOfSteel]

A great deal may come from the following:

Year 17: Emperor Cleon I defines Imperial citizenship as "any sentient life form within the Imperial borders, regardless of its origins." Travellers' Digest #12, DGP, 1988, p. 38.

I think this falls now into "forbidden canon" (wrong/right???).

Personally, I thought the statement too broad, creating the problem of granting the benefits of Imperial Citizenship to foreign nationals by broad default. Since everyone in the Imperium was automatically a citizen. It would, however, save money on not needing immigration bureacracy.

 

[mike wightman]

The same quote is in the MegaTraveller Referee's Companion, so it is definitely canonical.
It is also quoted in Survival Margin.
He goes on to say (MT:RC):
"One may argue that an intelligent robot might be sentient, but it is definitely not a life form."

Survival Margin goes on to say that the true meaning is any sentient life forms recognised by the Imperium at the time - subject to change at a moments notice

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by CardinalBiggles:
[qb] As the Third Imperium is dedicated to free trade, what is the position on the movement of people?

Biggles,

Look at it a bit more closely. The Imperium mandates free trade between starports, it doesn't say anything about trade moving across extrality boundaries. And there are plenty examples of tarrifs, prohibitions, taxes, etc.

So, people can move freely from starport to starport. However, crossing the extrality line is another matter entirely.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
"One may argue that an intelligent robot might be sentient, but it is definitely not a life form."

I rather thought that was a result of the particular prejudices of the Imperium when the judgement was made, rather than any form of enlightened attitude.

But thanks for letting me know it's in MT, too.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Look at it a bit more closely. The Imperium mandates free trade between starports, it doesn't say anything about trade moving across extrality boundaries. And there are plenty examples of tarrifs, prohibitions, taxes, etc.

So, people can move freely from starport to starport. However, crossing the extrality line is another matter entirely.


Sincerely,
Larsen

The trouble with this is, the IN, IM, and IB all require huge numbers of low-level employees (people who don't have to be nobility just to occupy their position).

Either people are going to have to be able to cross the extrality line to get to recruitment centers, or the Imperial Services will need to run recruitment on planetary-soverign soil (which doesn't sound right, but I guess could happen).

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Concur. Is the Imperial Navy going to import the entire workforce for a shipyard or would they recruit workers from the planet it orbits? High level positions are going to be imports, but the stevedores are going to be local.

You'd have to figure that supplying a workforce to the Imperial bureaucracy on your planet would be one way a planetary government could ensure a steady flow of revenue back through the gate of the starport. One more incentive for having an autonomous Imperial starport on or above your planet.

And surely a planetary government can restrict movement off the starport; a sort of persona-non-grata type situation. Maybe the person is a known mercenary captain and the locals are worried about his motives. Maybe the person is a merchant prince whose interests lie in political manipulation. Maybe the person is a high impact investigative journalist and the locals have something to hide. The locals only need to throw up some bureaucratic b.s. and the person in question stays on the starport indefinitely. Doesn't mean they can't leave the planet, just can't access the planet or its populace.

 

[Random Goblin]

I would imagine that consistent Imperial Policy would be to not allow local governments to restrict movement (and I think the question is moving across the extrality line) except for certain circumstances (criminals, for example).

However, I would imagine that in reality, local planetary governments can dream up all kinds of justifications for not letting you cross into the starport if they needed to.

Could they totally blockade the starport, and not let anyone cross? Sure, but I doubt they could get away with it, as that would start to do economic damage to the sub/sector and thus would attract Imperial ire.

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by Random Goblin:
I would imagine that consistent Imperial Policy would be ...

However, I would imagine that in reality,...

That's the key to this question, I think.

I've always treated the Imperium as a big heap of local "exceptions" and inconsistencies. I guess that's a consequence of taking its feudal and multi-species aspects seriously.

After all, humans can make all the laws and policies they like, but the Fungi from Yuggoth are going to carry on doing their own thing regardless...

Alan B

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperium does not interfere with planetary governments. They can be as oppressive to their populous as they like, but as long as they keep paying their taxes the Imperium does not get involved.
Which makes a lie of (paraphrase)"all life forms within the Imperium have the protection of the Imperium" - well, come to think of it, no it doesn't.
The Imperiun will defend its indentured slaves' rights to be the Imperium's slaves

It's one of the reasons that Dulinor pulled the trigger...

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Either people are going to have to be able to cross the extrality line to get to recruitment centers, or the Imperial Services will need to run recruitment on planetary-soverign soil (which doesn't sound right, but I guess could happen).

RoS,

Ever think that the delivery of warm bodies to Imperial 'recruitment' centers might be one of the 'taxes' Imperial worlds pay? The Three LBBs do make quite a deal out of the Draft after all.

Despite massive extrality restrictions, the low-level, step n' fetch it labor the Imperial services, ministries, and agencies require can still easily be provided by a 57th Century version of North Korea. The laborers the Imperium needs to sweep up, wipe down, and shift boxes are all carefully vetted individuals whose families and love ones are held as hostages to their continued good behavior. How else would think Dear Leader can staff his embassies around the world?

There is no Imperium-wide answer to all this. Each world is different and the relationship each has with the Imperium different. There would be Marine and Navy recruitment centers on a world like Mora staffed with decorated veterans in snappy uniforms who canvas schools for volunteers. And on worlds like Crout there will be yearly drafts of people meeting Imperial requirements handed across the extrality line like a shipment of iridium ore.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Either people are going to have to be able to cross the extrality line to get to recruitment centers, or the Imperial Services will need to run recruitment on planetary-soverign soil (which doesn't sound right, but I guess could happen).

RoS,

Ever think that the delivery of warm bodies to Imperial 'recruitment' centers might be one of the 'taxes' Imperial worlds pay?
</font>[/QUOTE]No. Such mediums of exchange (people's services) are difficult to account for, and more difficult to write up and impose (in a manner that fends off the obvious appearance of slavery, which definitely isn't allowed).

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
The Three LBBs do make quite a deal out of the Draft after all.

Can you point me at that?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
No. Such mediums of exchange (people's services) are difficult to account for, and more difficult to write up and impose (in a manner that fends off the obvious appearance of slavery, which definitely isn't allowed).

RoS,

Good Sweet Strephon! You can't be that blinkered can you? Because it is too difficult to pop into a spreadsheet it won't be done?

And it's not too hard to write up and impose either, telling subject peoples you require X number of bodies for Y purposes each year is as old as the Pyramids.

Imperium battlefleet tells World Z that it now a part of the Imperium. World Z says thank you. Imperium tells World Z that; besides other things, it expects X number of recruits from the population each year. Imperium tells World Z that all said recruits must meet these requirements. Imperium tells World Z that either it must allow Imperial recrutiers or World Z can do the recruiting itself. Not wanting the population of their hermit kingdom to get restive, World Z chooses the latter. World Z drafts prospective recruits from its own population and hands them over to the Imperium. Imperial agents then divvy said warm bodies among the IM, IN, and IISS.

What is so difficult about that?

Can you point me at that?

Fail the enlistment roll for your career of choice and you must submit to the Draft.


Sincerely,
Larsen