Foreven = Dune

[kafka47]

The presents thread got me to thinking...how much indeed of Traveller (and Fading Suns which I consider to be alternate Traveller) is related to Dune. I was wondering if it was possible to create an entire Sector to set up the battleground for Duneworld. Therefore, have not one planet with precious resources but entire sector that could be up for grabs. Could one convert Foreven into Dune.

Well, first the sector is spilt between rival powers...check. Perhaps, the sector is not so much Cold War between Imperium and Zhodani fighting proxy wars but rather fighting wars of influence with their client states really quite independent. Sure, both the Zhodani and Imperium have holdings in the Sector but only to keep an eye on the other.

One could create a Sector wide council that would meet to arbitrate between the Sector's major powers maybe call it the Landsaarat...check.

One world that could trigger the conflict could have the preserved remains of Irem...a fully preserved Ancient City of unimaginable wealth buried under the sands an insignificant moon nestled in space between all the major powers. However, once the artifacts leave the world, they mysteriously cease to work. Or maybe they just have to decend to the lower levels...

The players play the role of Artredes who now must administer the world in the name of the Landsaarat whilst all the major powers.

As Irem's power grows from a coup by a local faction of the Ive Gnar, the ferment to spread the Revolution also grows to infect other worlds.

Ok, I have babbled enough...what do others think?

 

[mike wightman]

The OTU could easily become very Dune like.

Imperial family - check

Noble houses - check

CHOAM/Megacorps - check

There's your tripod.

Trouble is communication time - in Dune the guild could transport messages very quickly from world to world and jumps are of unlimited distance (effectively).

So for a true Dune type game you have to either:

use a single subsector

or

remove the performance cap of the jump drive.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Are you sure one sector is enough room? I know Dune basically encompasses only four planets, with Arrakis at its focus, but the powers involved seem much larger. Particularly the darker powers such as the Guild and Bene Gesserit. I think it wouldn't be long before these powers expanded out from Foreven into the rest of known space.

 

[mike wightman]

How many systems are actually detailed in Dune?

Noble houses rule planets or possibly even only parts of planets.

 

[aramis]

In the F. Herbert canon (not complete, but what I recall): Arakis (Dune), Caladan, Salusa Secondus, Wallach IX and X, Ix, Richesse, Tleilax, Chapterhouse, and a half-dozen worlds in the scattering in chapterhouse.

The extended canon novels add over a dozen more.

 

[mike wightman]

So not even a sector then

 

[mike wightman]

And you can ignore all the inhospitable planets since there's no point going to them - hence the jump map

 

[Supplement Four]

One of the problems with Dune, from an rpg perspective, is that there is no (or very little) starship combat. Aside from an encounter inside one of the Guild's transport ships, there will be no large, capital ship combat, no Traveller-like adventure class combat, and no dogfighting among fighters unless it is near/in an atmosphere.

That takes a lot of the "Traveller" out of Traveller, when changing the OTU to fit Dune.

In fact, since the Guild has a monoply on instellar travel, huge deals (like the one Baron Harkonnen makes to invade Dune) must be made for invasions to happen. Without the stiff pay-off, the Guild won't transport your ships, and you can't get your invasion fleet to where it needs to be.

What this makes, for the Dune rpg, is a lot of small, local battles having local technology and local vehicles and equipment.

 

[coliver988]

One of the problems with Dune, from an rpg perspective, is that there is no (or very little) starship combat. Aside from an encounter inside one of the Guild's transport ships, there will be no large, capital ship combat, no Traveller-like adventure class combat, and no dogfighting among fighters unless it is near/in an atmosphere.

That takes a lot of the "Traveller" out of Traveller, when changing the OTU to fit Dune.

In fact, since the Guild has a monoply on instellar travel, huge deals (like the one Baron Harkonnen makes to invade Dune) must be made for invasions to happen. Without the stiff pay-off, the Guild won't transport your ships, and you can't get your invasion fleet to where it needs to be.

What this makes, for the Dune rpg, is a lot of small, local battles having local technology and local vehicles and equipment.

oddly enough, in the 2 years I actively played Traveller, we only had a single space battle. Most of the time we were either so greatly out-gunned it would be simple suicide to fight, or we got away before anything could happen,or the other guys got away. Our focus was smaller scale, usually land combat for fairly focused objectives (legal or otherwise). We had small, local battles if we battled at all. We had more sneaking around than anything else.

So for the way we played (admittedly 20 odd years ago) that would not have made it un-Traveller for us. Funny thing about trying to define what is Traveller...(duck and run - I've seen this argument way too many times already!)

 

[rancke]

One of the problems with Dune, from an rpg perspective, is that there is no (or very little) starship combat. Aside from an encounter inside one of the Guild's transport ships, there will be no large, capital ship combat, no Traveller-like adventure class combat, and no dogfighting among fighters unless it is near/in an atmosphere.

This isn't an RPG problem, it's a wargamer problem.

That takes a lot of the "Traveller" out of Traveller, when changing the OTU to fit Dune.

There's more to Traveller than starship combat. A lot more.


Hans

 

[aramis]

And, S4's analysis is dead wrong, as the prequels show. The ship-to-ship combat occurs between offload and interface.

Plus, there are the no-ships (introduced in Chapterhouse) that are jump-capable themselves.

 

[Supplement Four]

And, S4's analysis is dead wrong, as the prequels show. The ship-to-ship combat occurs between offload and interface.

I was going by the Frank Herbert Dune novels, not the H&A trash prequels.

Plus, there are the no-ships (introduced in Chapterhouse) that are jump-capable themselves.

But, these ships are very few in number. Secret. More than likely very expensive. Owned by Barons and Houses, not like Traveller ships--which is my original point.

 

[aramis]

And those are part of the Dune canon, derived from notes by F Herbert. I get that you don't like them; that doesn't decanonize them.

The implications of the guild and ship combat are plain in chapterhouse; BH & KJA extrapolate that and show it.

THere are also small references within Frank's writings of armaments on the carried craft. There is plenty of room for ship-to-ship action. It's a very different kind of action than in the OTU, almost always orbital.

Also, there is implication in chapterhouse of actions in orbit.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ There is only one Dune and Frank Herbert is it's author!

I really think the only way to get the feel of Dune is to have the PC's be nobles fighting for their piece, but this is sort of anti-Traveller where most PC's are commoners trying to just get by.

The freedom of snaking your way across a sector is entirely eliminated by the advent of the Guild, that controls all space travel.

Commoners are little more than minions, even when they're in the immediate employ of a great house. Not much freedom there.

Again, I find it hard to shoe horn one universe into the other.

 

[epicenter00]

I don't necessarily think "freedom" of having your own starship necessarily precludes a Dune-like situation.

For instance, if you changed the cartography of YTU to make many small clusters of inhabited stars - like 1-3 stars in Jump-1. Some places would be larger, with perhaps the "Imperial Main" being like 6-8 stars in Jump-1, but nothing larger. Now you change Jump drives so that Jump-1 drives can be built fairly easily and compactly and can be operated by a computer with sophisticated "Autonavigator" technology, but these clusters are separated by distances of Jump-2 or greater.

Now there's a number of different ways to do things - the important point is that there's some technological barrier to a ship above Jump-1. Perhaps Jump technology isn't refined that much or there's a Vilani-like technology policing system (or both). However, perhaps some alternative jump technology exists, like psionic shifting, which requires specialized psionic talents known as Navigators who requires decades of rigorous training to operate the drives. The "navigator trait" is very rare or is the secret of some organization that controls it. Because of this, Navigator Guild ships tend to be large "heighliners" which can carry multiple J-1 ships between clusters at a time. So you can still have you J-1 ships and so on, but the Imperium (with the tacit approval of the Navigators) are the only ones who can truly run an empire because they're the only ones who have access to a fast drive beyond Jump-1.

One of the problems with Dune, from an rpg perspective, is that there is no (or very little) starship combat.

I have to agree with rancke and coliver988 here. I don't think a roleplaying game would lose all that much without space combat. Yes, it'd deny people who want to wargame, but roleplay? No.

My players (and I) consider themselves roleplayers and despise starship combat because it's very anti-roleplay and anti-interaction. The captain/pilot moves the ship around and enjoys doing discussing manuver, the gunner shows up to roll dice. Everyone else as might as well just step out (or go home).

 

[aramis]

I agree that the two universes do not work together... but the rules are easily adapted to serve the Dune Universe.

But, if one is to play in that universe, the very idea that there "is only one Dune and Frank Herbert is its author" prevents playing in that universe, since the process of playing is a form of authorship.

Brian Herbert has infinitely more right to play the Dune Universe than any Ref. It is his birthright, and very much so, also his duty, to continue his father's most successful work.

Brian Herbert's work differs from the extensive Dune fanon. That's to be expected. It's inevitable. It's a way to avoid accusations of plagiarism.

But once you start playing Dune, you are no longer in Frank's universe.

 

[aramis]

My players (and I) consider themselves roleplayers and despise starship combat because it's very anti-roleplay and anti-interaction. The captain/pilot moves the ship around and enjoys doing discussing manuver, the gunner shows up to roll dice. Everyone else as might as well just step out (or go home).

you need to try the mechanics in the playtest draft (3.2) of MGT... it didn't make the cut, but it did give more than just pilot and gunner things to do. It made it a roleplaying experience. It was WAY too slow for the wargamer crowd. But it was excellent for group play. Very much like Battlestations! by the Brothers Siadek DBA Gorilla Games.

 

[kafka47]

How many systems are actually detailed in Dune?

Noble houses rule planets or possibly even only parts of planets.

^ Are you sure one sector is enough room? I know Dune basically encompasses only four planets, with Arrakis at its focus, but the powers involved seem much larger. Particularly the darker powers such as the Guild and Bene Gesserit. I think it wouldn't be long before these powers expanded out from Foreven into the rest of known space.

Indeed, so one sector is more than enough to contain all this trouble. The Bene Gesserit would be a problem but there are lots of Imperial or quasi Imperial organizations that might have a Sectorial identity. The alternate solution is make them a career of the Vlazhdumecta.

But, I like the idea of spreading Dune out over a sector, as it allows for the larger canvas to be played out.

Aramis, whilst, I do agree that playing will destroy Dune as a concept...if I were to play with a steady group. I would issue background notes on culture and constrictions on play with the group assuming that they would use in play. So, that it would be no different than if they would play Dune RPG (which I do have anyhow).

For the case of NOT granting the players an individual starship...I am all in favour of that (the one area where Traveller does create some uber players who do not want to follow the laws of supply & demand)...the Guild provides an excellent reason for that.

Again, the solution would be base it upon something like a Sectorial culture akin to Core's need to keep full employment have only Imperial licenced starships hence providing jobs for the people who fly them, bureaucrats who file the forms whilst maintaining a National Security State in the Sector around Capitol. Furthermore, maybe there are rogue elements even within the Guild that would allow players to commandeer a starship. Or maybe, it could do with something to do with the Ancient artifacts on Irem...maybe they open transwarp portals across the Sector but only the individuals attuned can use them...hence place the major planets across the Sector.

Here you are using Traveller not as the OTU but as bare mechanic for different adventures that may change the pace but not the game itself. Traveller is immensively flexible, and as wedded we might be to the OTU, it does not mean that we should not find a use for the OTU but really define a Sector as unique. Think back how Signal GK changed our perceptions of Traveller in a darkish cyberpunk mode...some would say that was also not Traveller but it certainly is part of my Traveller even if it is not canon.

 

[Peter Schutze]

>In fact, since the Guild has a monoply on instellar travel, huge deals (like the one Baron Harkonnen makes to invade Dune) must be made for invasions to happen. Without the stiff pay-off, the Guild won't transport your ships, and you can't get your invasion fleet to where it needs to be.

there is mention of ships and travel before the guild .... pretty sure its mentioned in Dune or Children that the Fremen emigrated to Arrakis pre-guild.

so if you reduce all the non-earthlike worlds to be basically useless / unpopulated (reroll any that are over about 5000 pop) and downgrade all starports to c or worse to reflect that they arent really used (especially no highports)

let "old school" pre-guild "relic ships" have a max of say jump 3 and apply appropriate Traveller rules vigorously eg missing annual maintenance penalties .... while the guild ships have the ability to jump directly to the 10-50D (depends on moons) area of any planet with their success roll determining how far off "directly over the capital landingport" etc they arrive

so the Harkonnen **could** have done it without the guild assuming they could find enough big relic ships and they wanted to risk their army being "off the map" plodding along at slower than x-boat speed over a distance of say sylea to vland or terra that long .... even being nice and making their planet fairly close to Arrakis should mean a half dozen jumps with little support infrastructure along the way if you take out all the non greensleeves worlds

added: for this to work though you have to ignore the "official timeline" that has been created which suggests the guild has been around for over 10000 years by the time of the Dune novel

 

[jatay3]

Some ideas are similar to dune like the political intrigue and the neofeudalism. I noticed it on first looking over traveller. However I think traveller has a lot more available.