Fleets and Jumping

[Ben W Bell]

A question about fleets and Jumpspace.

When a ship enters jumpspace there is the uncertainty regarding it's exit time. Better calculations can reduce this but you can never predict exactly what time you will appear.

My query is this.

If a fleet all jumps at the same time to a target system, will they all appear at the same time or will they be staggered? If there is a central jump processing system to handle the calculations for the entrire fleet will they come out at the same time?

I've always wondered about this and in MTU I have the elements of the fleet arrive at different times as this adds an extra element of chance to any fleet tactics.

 

[Antony]

IMTU Fleets where possible use the same jum parameters. Thus the only variable would be the actual locations of the ships themselves when they entered jump.

It would be a tad embarrising if the bulk of a fleet arrived on day six of a jump while the admiral and his flagship arrived on day eight.

Thus assuming no other problem, like that fleet reserve TL11 destroyer being past its annual maintenance I assume they should all arrive in much the same formation as they entered and emerge at the same time.

Be careful though if the ship generating the navigation coordinates has a mis jump. You could have a fleet scattered all over the sector.

 

[Ben W Bell]

But does on ship have enough processing power to enable the entire fleet to jump based on the same computations?

 

[Ron]

Originally posted by BenBell:
But does on ship have enough processing power to enable the entire fleet to jump based on the same computations?

I guess so. Traveller's original computer rules were created during the late seventies, back when computers were bulky machines with little processing power. I think it is time to an update on Traveller's computer capabilities, more aligned with the XXI century reality.

 

[Simon Jester]

Originally posted by BenBell:
A question about fleets and Jumpspace.

When a ship enters jumpspace there is the uncertainty regarding it's exit time. Better calculations can reduce this but you can never predict exactly what time you will appear.

My query is this.

If a fleet all jumps at the same time to a target system, will they all appear at the same time or will they be staggered? If there is a central jump processing system to handle the calculations for the entrire fleet will they come out at the same time?

I've always wondered about this and in MTU I have the elements of the fleet arrive at different times as this adds an extra element of chance to any fleet tactics.

IMTU, the fleet would not all jump at the same time, but at timed intervals based mainly on type of ship, with combat vessels jumping first and support and troop vessels jumping in staggered waves a few hours apart. This would help to ensure that no non-combat vessels would be arriving in the destination system without protection. Also, the variations in jump time would tend to average out, with ships of different types arriving randomly enough that any needed type would have a good chance of being available.

As for departure and arrival formations, the fleet jumps out in a globe formation, with the core jumping first and each consecutive wave of ships moving inward and jumping from the core with plenty of space between ships, not just the ones in each wave but between jump-out locations for the entire fleet. Since the jump duration is variable, this helps to ensure that there aren't any overlaps on ships jumping in. The entire fleet bases its jump computations on a single "benchmark" point in space and time, with each ship computing its own offset from this point so that the fleet will arrive in basically the same location. As each ship arrives, it moves on a course predetermined not to cross into any "arrival" location to a place in the fleet globe, which is now much larger than that used on departure. All this is done to remove as many "elements of chance" as possible from fleet actions. Remember, they've had a couple thousand years to work all of these things out (over the terms of the First through Third Imperiums).

IMTU arrival location is also somewhat variable as well, based on pilot/navigator skill level. Each ship must perform its own jump calculations as each ship is geometrically unique in it's hull and engine configuration. By this I mean that all the thousands, if not millions, of tiny variabvles based on wear, repair, energy fluctuations, etc, for each ship makes a single grand computation for the entire fleet impossible. Besides, in the time it would take for the jump computation to be transmitted, received, uploaded and used, a good number of the variables based on interstellar motion, location and drift would have changed enough to spread the arriving fleet over half of the destination system.

As I've said, all of this is in MTU. Use what you will.

Simon Jester

 

[GypsyComet]

The MT-era answer was that a fleet could coordinate their jump calcs during entry and reduce the time variable by a factor of ten (or so) and the space variable almost completely. The fleet had to be in close, secure communication, however...

 

[Shadow Bear]

Originally posted by BenBell:
A question about fleets and Jumpspace.

If a fleet all jumps at the same time to a target system, will they all appear at the same time or will they be staggered? If there is a central jump processing system to handle the calculations for the entrire fleet will they come out at the same time?
.

I have been a player where the referee allowed the fleet ( a small one of 7 ships) jump as one unit by a special Imperial Navy computer progrem installed on the flagship. All ships jumped at the same time with the flag making the calculations for all. The calculations where sent to the others ship's computers and the flag would send a signal to jump. Most times the jumps went well. Once there was a ship missing when we arrived but it arrived later. There were some mechanical problems with that ships drive. (the ref rolled a misjump for it)

 

[wrandrews]

I remember an official product (not sure which one) addressing this. By sharing jump vectors during computation, the ships exit jump more or less at the same time (half and hour to a few hours). I usually just pull a number out of the air, or roll a D6 for the half hour increments.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Russ Andrews:
I remember an official product (not sure which one) addressing this. By sharing jump vectors during computation, the ships exit jump more or less at the same time (half and hour to a few hours). I usually just pull a number out of the air, or roll a D6 for the half hour increments.

The Q&A in one of the MTJ's included the official rules for goup jumping in MT.

 

[millican]

You may want to consider putting the sophont back into the loop on this. From the Terran historical records I note that the Soviet Union's Navy had a position of "Fleet Navigator". The position was held by rank "Captain of the First Rank" (US / UK Navy equivalent of a rank "Captain").
From this historical tidbit you could extrapolate a position on the Fleet Admiral's staff of "Fleet Navigator" held by a "Captain". The Fleet Navigator would be responsible for all those wonderfully intricate dances involved in moving a fleet of star faring warships through the galaxy. Of course, this tour of duty would strongly add to one's navigation skill level, but then again I wouldn't want someone in that position who did'nt bring a high level of this skill into the position!

 

[vegascat]

This makes for interesting system and planetary invasions. SDBs have their crack as the ships arrive in semi random order. The SDBs can hit the first ones in then fade to the gas giants. This makes them a force multiplier.
A fleet wound not jump in too close to a target for this reason, except as a fast raid with a quick jump out already programed.

--------------------------------
In the end, Murphy will rule

 

[BMonnery]

IMTU, the fleet would not all jump at the same time, but at timed intervals based mainly on type of ship, with combat vessels jumping first and support and troop vessels jumping in staggered waves a few hours apart. This would help to ensure that no non-combat vessels would be arriving in the destination system without protection. Also, the variations in jump time would tend to average out, with ships of different types arriving randomly enough that any needed type would have a good chance of being available.

As for departure and arrival formations, the fleet jumps out in a globe formation, with the core jumping first and each consecutive wave of ships moving inward and jumping from the core with plenty of space between ships, not just the ones in each wave but between jump-out locations for the entire fleet. Since the jump duration is variable, this helps to ensure that there aren't any overlaps on ships jumping in. The entire fleet bases its jump computations on a single "benchmark" point in space and time, with each ship computing its own offset from this point so that the fleet will arrive in basically the same location. As each ship arrives, it moves on a course predetermined not to cross into any "arrival" location to a place in the fleet globe, which is now much larger than that used on departure. All this is done to remove as many "elements of chance" as possible from fleet actions. Remember, they've had a couple thousand years to work all of these things out (over the terms of the First through Third Imperiums).

IMTU arrival location is also somewhat variable as well, based on pilot/navigator skill level. Each ship must perform its own jump calculations as each ship is geometrically unique in it's hull and engine configuration. By this I mean that all the thousands, if not millions, of tiny variabvles based on wear, repair, energy fluctuations, etc, for each ship makes a single grand computation for the entire fleet impossible. Besides, in the time it would take for the jump computation to be transmitted, received, uploaded and used, a good number of the variables based on interstellar motion, location and drift would have changed enough to spread the arriving fleet over half of the destination system.

As I've said, all of this is in MTU. Use what you will.

Simon Jester

[/QB]

Same here, IMTU it's random, but the picket ships would jump in first, trying to clear the main entry point.

ISTR that in the Islands Cluster Campaign (on the web) the defence of gas giants was never an issue, fleets jumped in at the 100d limit and attacked immediately, refuelling from tankers.

As for computers, I actually don't have a real problem with them as written. We do have massive parallel computers today (The Earth Computer fills a building and runs at 35 THz ISTR, and it's "just" a weather predictor). The text in Robots is mostly correct when it describes a theoretical limit for linear computing (without the introduction of exotic technologies) and parallelism is the way to go.

FWIW, the theoretical limit ISTR is being hit as we speak. While affordable processors may increase in power, the high end PC's will simply stop increasing in processing power.

Bryn

 

[far-trader]

Don't forget in all this Fleet Jump coordination that there is a canon (MWM) random factor in the real space emergence from the plotted point of 3,000km per parsec jumped (and as much as 10x that, probably in the case of misjump but I'm not sure).

I would also suggest, but have not heard mentioned, a vector variable too. Standard practice is to zero your vector before jumping (but relative to which system?). I always figured the safe way to do it is to plot a zeroed vector relative to the relative motion of your target body in the destination system (or if you're really worried a small delta away from it). Perhaps a random delta impulse of .1g to .6g (d6) per parsec jumped (and more for a misjump, 1d6 for the number of d6 above?)

I figure these variables (IMTU) are the result of minor errors in calculation (unplotted gravitations mostly) and/or poorly tuned/maintained drives mostly.