Just confused by this. Given we are about average TL8, we do not seem to have any of the experimental techs posited for TL11, or even crude TL 10 gear. Should there be some notion of hard cut outs for technology so that until the 'breakthrough' occurs you cannot get the experimental techs?
Experimental tech at TL-3
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I've had an epiphany of sorts, but it does require a bit of rethinking what we know about the TL scale.
Here in the real world we built an experimental nuclear reactor at TL5, the first experimental atomic bomb at TL5, the first experimental atomic power stations at TL6.
So we must move stable, well developed and well understood atomic power (standard) to TL8 - i.e. our next generation reactors are actually the standard version of the technology.
Here in the real world we built an experimental nuclear reactor at TL5, the first experimental atomic bomb at TL5, the first experimental atomic power stations at TL6.
So we must move stable, well developed and well understood atomic power (standard) to TL8 - i.e. our next generation reactors are actually the standard version of the technology.
The Striker, MT, and FF&S TL effects on drives and power plants tends to support that view.
In other words, you're finally doing it right... 
From the point of view of someone that doen't know T5:
when its said aplanet may use experimental TL ítems at needed TL -3, does it mean a planet developing by itself (or over the maximum TL known or accessible) or a planet inside the imperium (or similar entity) and that can have access to this TL?
To put examples:
Imperium is TL 15. Can Jewell (TL 12 in 1105) build some experimental TL 15 ítems? Probably, as it has the theoretical support and access to those items.
Likewise, for the same reasons, Emerald, close to Jewell (TL 8 in 1105) can build ítems up to TL 11, but not higher, as it lacks the advanced materials and processes to build so advanced ítems.
But can Glisten (TL 15 in 1105) build experimental TL 18 ítems? I have serious doubts about it, as it lacks not only the industrial capacity, but also the theoretical knowledge to do so.
Likewise, current Terra (about TL 8) cannot build even most TL 9 ítems (like jump drives), as it lacks the theoretical knowledge (even though it might perhaps built them if this knowledge were provided by anyone, or replicate them if a simple was obtained).
So, is it explicited in T5 what of those options the experimental at TL -3 rules mean?
when its said aplanet may use experimental TL ítems at needed TL -3, does it mean a planet developing by itself (or over the maximum TL known or accessible) or a planet inside the imperium (or similar entity) and that can have access to this TL?
To put examples:
Imperium is TL 15. Can Jewell (TL 12 in 1105) build some experimental TL 15 ítems? Probably, as it has the theoretical support and access to those items.
Likewise, for the same reasons, Emerald, close to Jewell (TL 8 in 1105) can build ítems up to TL 11, but not higher, as it lacks the advanced materials and processes to build so advanced ítems.
But can Glisten (TL 15 in 1105) build experimental TL 18 ítems? I have serious doubts about it, as it lacks not only the industrial capacity, but also the theoretical knowledge to do so.
Likewise, current Terra (about TL 8) cannot build even most TL 9 ítems (like jump drives), as it lacks the theoretical knowledge (even though it might perhaps built them if this knowledge were provided by anyone, or replicate them if a simple was obtained).
So, is it explicited in T5 what of those options the experimental at TL -3 rules mean?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You could have jump drive (3 parsec range) as experimental at TL9 (only capable of jump1) and doesn't become standard until TL12, that then allows you to have improvements all the way to jump 6.
The second generation jump drive (capable of jump 6) is experimental at TL12 (only capable of jump 3 but smaller) getting to standard at TL15 (and jump 6 performance), improvements take it to higher jump numbers.
The idea of jump 0 drives at TL6 make me think of the Philadelphia Experiment...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The TL scale is for first discovery for cultures outside the Imperium. A TL15 world can start experimenting with building TL18 stuff.
There are a few fudges here and there, for example jump 0 drive at TL6 rather than jump 1, and statements that some technologies are beyond just advancement up the TL scale but require genius level accidental breakthroughs, like discovering jump for example.
I made a post about this some time ago in another thread to the effect:
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As Mike and McPerth have noted above, if you are trying to assign the TL of an item in your campaign, you need to consider that "Standard TL" is when the technology has become mature and is in common use. "Early" should be the phase when a technology first comes into use (and perhaps is not widespread or is just used for "cutting-edge" devices).
Prototype items are R&D items (and may very well be classified corporate or military projects) - in other words, when was the F-117 Stealth Fighter prototype actually flying? Answer: Long before the public new about it.
Also (and MJD made this comment in his Introduction to MgT: Central Supply Catalogue: There is a difference between when an item can first be technologically produced when it is due to original unaided cutting edge research, versus when it can actually be built by a society that knows the theory but may just lack the technological infrastructure to be functioning as a society at that TL. In other words, there is a difference if we are on modern Earth engaging in cutting-edge research trying to develop technology and determine what is achievable without any outside or prior knowledge, versus what a society might be able to cobble together (presuming it had the desire to do so) when it already has the knowledge (i.e. books, history, knowledge of other cultures, etc), but not the technological infrastructure base in society.
For example, building an internal combustion engine on a world that has no prior knowledge of such a device (i.e. they have to think up the concept to begin with, and then by trial and error try to design a working Experimental model, etc) will occur later and over a longer development period that a similar society that is (for example) TL3 or TL4 and knows all about the device (perhaps they are colonists from a higher tech world, or the society had a higher TL in the past), but currently lack the technological infrastructure to mass-produce such a device. They could use their knowledge to cobble something together using what technological infrastructure they have available, and it would probably look ridiculous, but they could do it if they had the motivation.
The Ancient Greeks (TL1.5) invented the Experimental Steam Engine (Aeolipile - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile ) but never used it because culturally it was a philosopher's "thought experiment", and intellectuals didn't get their hands dirty "building things for practical application".
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As Mike and McPerth have noted above, if you are trying to assign the TL of an item in your campaign, you need to consider that "Standard TL" is when the technology has become mature and is in common use. "Early" should be the phase when a technology first comes into use (and perhaps is not widespread or is just used for "cutting-edge" devices).
Prototype items are R&D items (and may very well be classified corporate or military projects) - in other words, when was the F-117 Stealth Fighter prototype actually flying? Answer: Long before the public new about it.
Also (and MJD made this comment in his Introduction to MgT: Central Supply Catalogue: There is a difference between when an item can first be technologically produced when it is due to original unaided cutting edge research, versus when it can actually be built by a society that knows the theory but may just lack the technological infrastructure to be functioning as a society at that TL. In other words, there is a difference if we are on modern Earth engaging in cutting-edge research trying to develop technology and determine what is achievable without any outside or prior knowledge, versus what a society might be able to cobble together (presuming it had the desire to do so) when it already has the knowledge (i.e. books, history, knowledge of other cultures, etc), but not the technological infrastructure base in society.
For example, building an internal combustion engine on a world that has no prior knowledge of such a device (i.e. they have to think up the concept to begin with, and then by trial and error try to design a working Experimental model, etc) will occur later and over a longer development period that a similar society that is (for example) TL3 or TL4 and knows all about the device (perhaps they are colonists from a higher tech world, or the society had a higher TL in the past), but currently lack the technological infrastructure to mass-produce such a device. They could use their knowledge to cobble something together using what technological infrastructure they have available, and it would probably look ridiculous, but they could do it if they had the motivation.
The Ancient Greeks (TL1.5) invented the Experimental Steam Engine (Aeolipile - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile ) but never used it because culturally it was a philosopher's "thought experiment", and intellectuals didn't get their hands dirty "building things for practical application".
In fact, for MTU, I rather like the idea that Jump-1 is a TL10 standard device instead of TL9. Let the TL9 J-1 Drive be an Early J-Drive that might only get you to the Far Companion Star of your own system. It showcases the TL Stage Effect idea better, IMHO.
Mr. Wightman, you had been very strictly admonished to not discuss your knowledge of this event with anyone.
Please come with us . . .
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
The US had no knowledge of the existence of the Cavity Magnetron developed by the English prior to one being brought to the US by the Tizard Mission in September of 1940. By 1943, the US was building literally thousands of cavity magnetrons for use in microwave radars. The time required was 3 years. Watson-Watt came up with the idea of Radar in 1935, the British had a functioning air-defense system based on radar by 1939, and it was severely combat tested in 1940.
Note, every time you turn on a microwave, you are using a cavity magnetron.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
As I recall, that innovation required the melting of a chocolate bar, and a curious boffin.
Yes, and the invention of microwave popcorn shortly thereafter, IIRC.
A good point. Perhaps I should rephrase my above statement somewhat (as I think this is the intent of the T5 and MgT authors).
The question ultimately would be: "How early could the US (or UK) have built cavity magnetrons if someone had provided the blueprints"? In other words, is 1935 (TL5) the absolutely earliest they could possibly be built due to technology considerations? Or would it have been possible to have built them in say (for example) circa the year 1900 (TL4) if someone had given them the design specs and said "build this" using the 1900-era technology available at the time (even if it would have been a huge clunky monstrous affair that we would laugh at today)? If so, that is what would justify Experimental Radar as TL4, and TL5 as the Prototype version.
Of course, the development cycle of many technologies was accelerated against the ongoing backdrop of the war at the time. The date ranges for the historical TLs are a general guide, and don't always line up 1-to-1 with any particular technology (and I also consider that "in-game", the TL-chart is an average of what is typical in the history of many worlds throughout Charted Space, including the Vilani, who undoubtedly developed certain technologies faster than Terra in some areas and slower than Terra in others). In other words, the TL chart and stage-effects are what is considered "typical" for a generic world, while individual worlds may deviate somewhat in given particulars (and the Terran date ranges are general approximations).
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Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I would have to do some digging through my library and files, but given that the idea of bouncing radio waves off of objects was being given consideration about 1920, I think that if you gave a society at the Tech Level of circa 1900 the plans and explanation of a cavity magnitron, they probably could duplicate it fairly quickly, and to the same scale. The cathode ray tube for initial readout and PPI display might take a while to develop, but that I would need to check on.
One thing that has not been mentioned is the requirement for certain resources for some technologies. On a world like Victoria in the Lanth subsector, with very limited mineral deposits, you may have some advance chemistry but no equivalent of the Bronze or Iron Age. A world in what would be in Earth-terms, the Carboniferous Age, may have a hard time getting to the internal combustion engine due to a lack of liquid fuel unless a means of refining alcohol is available. A world with a limited land surface may suffer from a lack of resources in general.
There's also the atmospheric mix to consider.
Excess oxygen can make it easy to forge, but it also makes any fire really dangerous.
Too low, and achieved temperatures are considerably lowered, and a number of metallurgical breakpoints are likely delayed.
Replace the nitrogen with Argon, and while it doesn't much affect the combustion itself, it carries away about 1/5 as much heat as an equivalent mass of nitrogen.
Excess oxygen can make it easy to forge, but it also makes any fire really dangerous.
Too low, and achieved temperatures are considerably lowered, and a number of metallurgical breakpoints are likely delayed.
Replace the nitrogen with Argon, and while it doesn't much affect the combustion itself, it carries away about 1/5 as much heat as an equivalent mass of nitrogen.
