Evolution and Convolution of Traveller & Other Games

[Lord Iron Wolf]

To my Fellow Travellers,

I have noticed something with many games, including Traveller. It seems that games grow ever more complex and convoluted as they go through new editions. I'm not sure that this is a good trend. How far can a game go into complexity before it is unable to be grasped by new players?

I fear that Traveller V is going to be quite complex to use as it will have all the material and evolution of Books 4-8, Mega, TNE MMT4 and other materials in it. While it may be a delight to us grognards, will it be inaccessable to a neophyte who picks it up from a shelf. Although Traveller Lite may be a fun way of introducing something, often the introductory rules are the ones used to run the games with the more complex rules taking room in the book for little to no reason.

I have always thought that Classic Traveller had simple rules that were easily grasped and had a elegance that was easy to use, allowing the imagination to run wild instead of being a memonic torture to figure out combat or trying to do repairs to a badly damaged McGuffin.

I would much rather see more equipment, arms, exotic planets, cryptic artifacts or mysteries, and alien races than splitting hairs on skills, stats and other minutia.

To sum up the question: Should the next version of Traveller try to add more layers to the rules or should it try to scale back the rules' complexity to simple, streamlined elegance that is quick playing and flexible enough for many different referees' universes?

Looking Forward to your Thoughts,
Lord Iron Wolf

 

[flykiller]

I would much rather see more equipment, arms, exotic planets, cryptic artifacts or mysteries, and alien races than splitting hairs on skills, stats and other minutia.

well, suppliers usually must cater to demand.

perhaps rulesets could be implemented in a modular fashion - an initial simple ruleset for beginners, with expansion rulesets on various topics available as desired but not required. this is in fact the path traveller originally took, piecemeal and ad hoc, and this is in fact the approach most players take anyway. now that marc miller et al have hindsight perhaps this progression could be formalized and regularized.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
To my Fellow Travellers,
I fear that Traveller V is going to be quite complex to use as it will have all the material and evolution of Books 4-8, Mega, TNE MMT4 and other materials in it. While it may be a delight to us grognards, will it be inaccessable to a neophyte who picks it up from a shelf. Although Traveller Lite may be a fun way of introducing something, often the introductory rules are the ones used to run the games with the more complex rules taking room in the book for little to no reason.

I think you're assuming that T5 would have to include bits from every previous version of Traveller. From the sound of it, it's just an evolution of the T4 system and nothing else.

 

[TheDS]

T5 RULES need be only what's needed. T5 BACKGROUND may have all that material he's talking about.

I am all for keeping things as simple as possible. For an example of how to keep a game's RULES simple, check out Aurora.

Download the quickstart book (first item in the list) and see the second-simplest-to-learn game I've ever heard of.

Aurora's goal in gaming life is to provide players with an ultra-real game while at the same time getting the game to flow ultra-smoothly. Character generation takes a whole MINUTE (once you're familiar with the 30 or so skills) and you have a real good idea of what your character can do. Unlike any other game I've seen, your skills are not a DM toward success, they are a measure of what you can actually do, without need for rolling. You roll when you do something harder than that. Highly skilled people can now actually do things within their skill level descriptions! What a concept!!!

I played a simplified game of this, to get a feel for it, and while my players liked it, we have someone who weilds far too much power and can't stand to NOT have magic and a non-good character. I think maybe he also didn't like that I didn't play Santa Claus, whereas everyone else does. I liked it a lot myself; I thought it went excellently. Things went very smoothly.

Anyway, I'll reiterate that I want to see a simplified system, and like most people here, I want to - as much as possible - see the rules seperated from the background. However, I DO realize that the science and the rules are what are used to BUILD the DETAILS of the background, and complete seperation is like trying to seperate Mechs from Battletech; not easy.

 

[robject]

To see how T5 is developing, see the playtest PDF files. See for yourself where chargen is headed.

http://www.traveller5.com

It's not a kitchen sink, but it is a revision and compilation. I also think the best direction is to release a relatively milieu-free rulebook, with modular rule groups.

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

TheDS: I looked over the rules lite/downloadable PDF of the Aurora: Quick-Start rules and I cannot say I was very impressed with it. The following are some suggestions and some observations to help improve the game. (And yes, I know how difficult it is to make a playable game--I'm working on my third one now and this one may actually reach professional level.)

The artwork throughout is at a very amateurish level. Most looks like it was done by a bored student in math class. One artist I saw looks like she is in high school and still not past the "cutsy" phase of drawing. However she is showing competence and hopefully will mature into a professional level artist. (Natasha Dahlberg) The pencils aren't translating well to the page and should be replaced with Pen and Ink. On the whole improve the art or get rid of it. It is a quick turn off to potential buyers.

The layout is very open and clean. Times Roman is easy to read and is in a large point for that type of font 12-14. To my eye it looks like a little too much white space. (trying to stretch page count)

One thing which was bothering me in the overall reading of the text was the way it wasn't taking itself seriously. I call it after a Monty Python skit: Wink, wink, nudge, nudge; it's not showing your intellect, it's just annoying. (skills table is a good example of this.)

The Departure, The Hammer, The Ignorers; curios but how are they integrated into the game and how does logic progression explain their presence. Right now they look like bolt-ons to the game.

No examples are given in the rules lite version and I find the character generation incomplete or missing any logic chain to it (have you blind tested this?) examples and a step by step chart would help this process along.

The dice system seems a little gimmicky with failure dice, instead of success by beating a number. Is this being different worthwhile since it will confuse the users with a foreign concept?

One last thing which is really sending up warning flags to me is the rules light version doesn't address any of the referee's needs. One of the best signs of a game by an enthuistic amateur is to look at the sections and their amount. If the History, Character Generation, Combat and Equipment sections are full and the others merely skeletons, the game in not to a professional level and only has 10% of the work done to make it a professional level game.

The last thing is your price point of $20 for the basic game and another $20 to get a background to run the game in. If I print and bind at Kinkos for a standard 256 page book, it is going to cost me just under $30 per book to have them printed and bound into a usable format. My costs will reach close to $100 to have your basic system to run a game with. Hardcover books with full systems and color printing are running $35-$45 right now and I know the companies reputation. It costs a lot to take a chance on your system.

These are some general observations and critique of the game: Aurora. Your free rules light is a sales tool and I do not believe it is serving its purpose. If you think of it as a 59 page advertizing flyer, it will generate more sales for you.

Best of Luck,
Lord Iron Wolf

 

[TheDS]

Hey, thanks for the detailed analysis; hopefully this will lead the designer to a better game. The Lite edition is really just a sample, not a complete rules set, so there is plenty of stuff not explained in it that IS explained if you spend the $20 for the CD (which I did).

It does give you an idea as to how the game is supposed to work. No one had any difficulty understanding the task system; it was pretty much up to me (as GM) to know/identify what skill level a task was, and tell that to the player, who then decided whether or not to risk it. Most tasks, there was no rolling, I just said they succeeded or failed without wasting time looking up a bunch of stuff.

I would like to see something as simple as this SYSTEM (or close to it) for T5. The background can be whatever, but spending TWO MINUTES to create a character's basic stats appeals mightily to some one who HATES making characters (because I pretty much have to do it EVERY week, and not cuz I ever die) and will NEVER understand or agree with more than the basics of D&D. Strangely, I like the GURPS system, which is about as far from fast as you can get, if you devote a lot of thought to your character. Maybe I just see D&D characters as disposable, since in our group they rarely see a second session (again, not cuz they ever die).

I must assume, by the lack of support for my running of a second game, that despite all the praise that was heaped on me, that it was simply too much to ask for characters to not be visited by tons of easily beaten dragons. (Is it fair for a 3rd level character to meet, and then BEAT a dragon, even with a lucky roll, all by himself, just so the player won't complain?) Maybe it's cuz I'm not Santa Claus, and make them WORK for what they get. Whatever.

A simple system appeals to me as a player, because it's fewer rules I have to memorize, and appeals to me as a GM because it's fewer rules I have to memorize or get players to memorize. I'd rather concentrate on making a good story than rolling for everything. We had a guest GM who ran a D&D campaign WITHOUT character sheets and NO dice rolling at all. It was all about story. We still had a power gamer trying hard to mess it up, and the GM didn't know quite how to deal effectively with him, but overall, the game was very good, and went very fast. Most tasks were simple enough that there shouldn't be a need to roll them.

TNE introduced the idea of automatic success, but only applied it to the simplest of tasks. This idea had been around in other games, as far as I know, so it was no invention here. But the concept should carry further. If you look at common skill descriptions, they usually say that at a certain leve,, you can do such and such. It basically implies you shouldn't have to roll to accomplish those feats. But in every game, you always have to roll. It's always some hard task, and the chances of success are slim even for the character whose skill level says he should be able to do this.

That frustrates me mightily. So I suppose that's one of the many things I liked about Aurora when I read it. There's a list of things you can do at a certain level. (I made a handy chart to compile all the examples spread about the books, and added a few of my own.) If you attempt to drive on a glacier, and you have a Drive skill of 6 or more, YOU DO IT. No rolling necessary. Of course, if you're taking fire, or the weather is awful, there might be a penalty of a skill point or two, and then the PC may have to push their skill to retain control at a critical moment, but other than that, why should there be dice rolls every few seconds of play?

If T5 can make a simple system that makes it easy to learn how to play, that's what I wanna see. It should be a bit like Chess. The rules for moving are easy to learn, but developing powerful combinations and defeating your opponent are things that take time to master. Even Gary Kasparov loses a game now and then.

Make T5 simple. Uncouple the background as much as possible. Make it easy to get into. THEN people can spring for as much or as little background as they want.

 

[Sophiathegreen]

The one thing I didnot like in all the traveller system was only demencrate government planet can be rich. This is than unprovern statement I once have two police state planet classfic as rich as they where the key planets in linking two big main traking lane as they where the only two world 6 jump apart from each other.

 

[mtgeiger]

I have been playing Traveller RPG since its beginnings, and have seen its evolution from Classic Traveller, to MegaTraveller, through Traveller: The New Era, and T4: Marc Millers' Traveller and soon T5: Traveller. It rules is truely depended on the company who publishethem. GDW is now cease to exist as well as Imperium Games, Inc. Far Future Enterprises, Inc. are republishing the original Traveller series in a series of Canon Books and are considered collectable for all Traveller Connoisseur. T20: Traveller is based on the Dungeons & Dragons RPG format with its points system as well as Star Wars RPG published by the company Wizards of the Coast. When Traveller is simple and easy to play, that's when its most fun and not bound by systems rules. The bigger the rules, the more complex the system becomes and as confusing for the players and consumers of their product. The basic rule for these publishers should be "Give the People what they want."

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:

The artwork throughout is at a very amateurish level. Most looks like it was done by a bored student in math class. One artist I saw looks like she is in high school and still not past the "cutsy" phase of drawing. However she is showing competence and hopefully will mature into a professional level artist. (Natasha Dahlberg) The pencils aren't translating well to the page and should be replaced with Pen and Ink. On the whole improve the art or get rid of it. It is a quick turn off to potential buyers.

As I thought about this point, I'd realized that I would rather have less art than bad art. That is to say, I thought the T4 art distracted from my enjoyment of the rules, much the same as I thought the THB T20 cover was just feeble. I much prefer a bit of line art that is *NOT DISTRACTING* to flashy glossy colour images.

I also reflected that LBBs had little or no art (unless you count maps, etc and the very occasional little drawing of a ship or something) and what they did have was not distracting. Art fills space. I buy RPG rules for playing, not for admiring as a collectors item. Some art is excusable/necessary (depictions of aliens and equipment, for example) but I find pencil or technical pen illustrations the best route here as it isn't too overpowering and distracting.

The layout is very open and clean. Times Roman is easy to read and is in a large point for that type of font 12-14. To my eye it looks like a little too much white space. (trying to stretch page count)

Mind you, the opposite is an equally bad problem (crammed in stuff). I find the idea of using serif fonts in small print to be a minor form of insanity.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Sophiathegreen:
The one thing I didnot like in all the traveller system was only demencrate government planet can be rich. This is than unprovern statement I once have two police state planet classfic as rich as they where the key planets in linking two big main traking lane as they where the only two world 6 jump apart from each other.

The "Rich" Classification bore *no relationship* to trade or X-boat routes. That in itself should tell you it was flawed. The "Poor" designation was equally broken.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Mark G.:
When Traveller is simple and easy to play, that's when its most fun and not bound by systems rules.

I have to point out the number of TCS/PE people there are out there, and the number of gearheads who are into FF&S/BL/HG1/HG2/Striker Vehicles/T20 Vehicles, etc.

I'll also point out all the would-be universe-builders (programmers and the by-hand kind) out there who use Book 6, MT, WBH, and GT:FI to construct convoluted star systems.

There are clearly a large minority who quite enjoy the convoluted and algerbraically dizzying parts of the rulesets.

Did you wish to say they had no place in the game? Did you wish to say the game should not cater to their interests? I don't think you did (I hope not anyway).

The basic rule for these publishers should be "Give the People what they want."

Ah, what a wonderful but almost singularly information free statement!

Do you honestly think that the designers of the previous N versions of the game (businesses every one) were not *trying* to give the people what they thought the people wanted? The *people* want a whole bunch of different things, depending on who you talk to. The game designers are not gifted with omniscience or even the much more pedestrian telepathy. So they make their best cut at providing something that will interest people and sell games. To date, their success has been variable, but we're still playing the game in some form 25 years after, so it hasn't been a singular disaster.

Using words like "simplicity" isn't even really sufficient as that term means different things to different folks.

All I can say is what features *I'd* consider important in the decision to buy/not buy in the next edition:

1. A BITS or MT like skill/task system is a plus
2. Chargen like Mercenary/Scouts/High Gaurd/Etc for ALL player types
3. A decoupling from the OTU - make background a separate product
4. Some good designers notes saying why decisions were made and why some were not regarding mechanics etc.
5. A random character generation system with something like Brownie Points to influence it. This captures the effects of human will on their own situation without giving them total minute control, which probably closest models peoples actual progress through life - I know for certain *I* haven't chosen every change of job or school or residence in my life. I have been able to have some influence on this however. I think MT has been one of the closest systems to capturing this feel yet.

Those to me, and a D6 based set of mechanics (as clunky as it is, Traveller to me is a D6 game), will make something I'll consider buying.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
3. A decoupling from the OTU - make background a separate product

Wanted to second this one suggestion. I have my own ideas of stuff I want to see in a Traveller Universe. And I am sure everyone else does as well. So decoupling the rules from the setting is a great idea.

Of course, that does lead to one slight problem. Since the setting is decoupled, and folks are free to create their own, then the same rule set can be used for other genrie of stories. Are you still playing Traveller if you have elves vampires and wizards?

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark G.:
When Traveller is simple and easy to play, that's when its most fun and not bound by systems rules.

I have to point out the number of TCS/PE people there are out there, and the number of gearheads who are into FF&S/BL/HG1/HG2/Striker Vehicles/T20 Vehicles, etc.

I'll also point out all the would-be universe-builders (programmers and the by-hand kind) out there who use Book 6, MT, WBH, and GT:FI to construct convoluted star systems.

There are clearly a large minority who quite enjoy the convoluted and algerbraically dizzying parts of the rulesets.

Did you wish to say they had no place in the game? Did you wish to say the game should not cater to their interests? I don't think you did (I hope not anyway). </font>[/QUOTE]Whilst I agree, I do think that support for said minority should not dominate the core product (one of the flaws of MT is the only design sequences are too complex - contrast with character gen where for some careers you get simple and advanced systems). In this regard, T:TNE/T4 (or even Book2/Book5

) had the concept right: simple base systems fully compatible with more complex add-on systems which suit those enamoured of greater detail.

All I can say is what features *I'd* consider important in the decision to buy/not buy in the next edition:

1. A BITS or MT like skill/task system is a plus
2. Chargen like Mercenary/Scouts/High Gaurd/Etc for ALL player types
3. A decoupling from the OTU - make background a separate product
4. Some good designers notes saying why decisions were made and why some were not regarding mechanics etc.
5. A random character generation system with something like Brownie Points to influence it. This captures the effects of human will on their own situation without giving them total minute control, which probably closest models peoples actual progress through life - I know for certain *I* haven't chosen every change of job or school or residence in my life. I have been able to have some influence on this however. I think MT has been one of the closest systems to capturing this feel yet.

Those to me, and a D6 based set of mechanics (as clunky as it is, Traveller to me is a D6 game), will make something I'll consider buying.

Looks good, I'd add:

6) A clear and simple combat/action resolution system (T4 and CT are good, MT and T:TNE are too intricate IMO - a simplified At Close Quarters with ACQ as the advanced optioni would be good...)

7) Modularity: design sequences and subsystems that have a simple CT/T4-esque base for everyone but which seemlessy feed into Book6/MT-WBH/FF&S type detailed systems.

My preference would be for 2d6 rather than nd6 as well.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

 

[robject]

...simple base systems fully compatible with more complex add-on systems which suit those enamoured of greater detail.

Amen.

1. MT like (ie 2D6) skill/task system
2. Chargen like Mercenary/Scouts/High Gaurd/Etc for ALL player types
3. A decoupling from the OTU - make background a separate product
4. Some good designers notes saying why decisions were made and why some were not regarding mechanics etc.
5. A random character generation system with something like Brownie Points to influence it.

6) A clear and simple combat/action resolution system (eg T4 and CT) [+advanced system too]

7) Modularity: simple CT/T4-esque base ... which seamlessy feed into [more complex rulesets].

1. T5 is standing on the shoulders of T4, for better or worse. This means an Nd6 mechanic.

2 & 5. Chargen for all character types is quite similar to that of T4, with some nice refinements. For example, there is a "Quick Generation System" for each career type, whereby the referee or the player-in-haste can VERY quickly tailor a PC, ready to go. Also, there is a Brownie-Point-like system of a sort: it's based on the PCs SOC. Any roll (and requirement, too, I think) in the chargen process can be potentially 'waived' by rolling SOC or less, DM+ the number of times this PC has tried this before (i.e. a cumulative penalty).

3. I hope so. I'm *assuming* the core rules will resemble CT and T4's core rules.

4. Perhaps in rules expansions, or web-published errata, or who knows?

6. Yeah. Though I never tried it out, I hear that T4 had a simplified weapon pen rules, which sounds like a good dash of 'realism' over CT.

7. Again, yeah. If chargen (and T4) is any indication, then modularity is being planned into T5.

 

[Judas]

About the complexity of the gaming system that has been mentioned in a few posts.

One camp would have rules to cover just about everything with as detailed resolution as possible.

Another camp would have less complex rules, and easier resolution at a loss to the detail covered.

Depending on the situation I think that Like in CT, and TNE there should be a fairly specific task resolution system (come to think of it most Traveller Versions are based upon a simple task resolution table) with variations or modifiers for the situation at hand.

What I think is needed most is More detail in the area of equipment, alien races, cultural profiles, and other support materials that seem to be popular with other game systems (Like a well supported line of miniatures...Pester Marc about this. I have a line almost ready for production..in any scale that might be wanted)

In other words...Support of a System with supplements, Scenarios, World data, Racial data (whether alien or humaniti), vehicles, starships, etc....There are other materials that are now possible with digital game aids possible as well.

 

[Granpafishy]

Please, please!!!!!!!

 

[mike wightman]

There are other materials that are now possible with digital game aids possible as well.

I'll second that cheer.
I have found the pdf supplements very useful. No more photocopying player's handouts, just print it out instead. Vehicle and ship design spreadsheets are very useful too.
Now all I need to find is a good deck plan program.

 

[Jame]

Maybe there should be a printed guide to world wide web pdfs and other supplements...

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

Jame, the way websites tend to appear and dissappear faster than fanzines, a printed list would be half worthless when it finally reached the printers and even worse when the buyer had purchased the book and surfed.

It may be an idea to have a links page + descriptions on this board with someone checking out these sites viability every month.

Lord Iron Wolf