Dynamics of system defense and other thoughts

[Whipsnade]

Liam,

I wasn't sufficiently clear.

That 1000 ships per sector number from MT includes escorts. That's a sector's worth of fleets for the Classic Era Third Imperium, that period's premier military power in Charted Space. Only one sector, Corridor, is said to have more. That was a helluva lot of warships even before Virus destroyed everything.

I don't see how Virus could muster and maintain 1000 Beowulfs let alone 1000 warships.

Think about it, if Virus could gather that amount of strength the Regency wouldn't be able to hold the Islands, the Regency wouldn't be able to hold the Quarantine Line, the Hivers wouldn't be able to keep their 'Cracker Line' between the Federation and the RC open, the RC would be nothing but a speedbump... hell, you get the picture.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Liam Devlin]

Bill check yer PM.

 

[Liam Devlin]

PS: Edited the page 6 original scenario to 1000 ships for this thread.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Cat out of the Bag here:

This is the "Black Fleet" from Lucan's Imperium that destroys the Covenant of Sufren worlds in 1211, as mention in Avenger Press's OoTD:1248 .

For those who disagree with the Large Ship TU, well, this is where one of the last "Big fleets" is attritioned away, and allows the Grand Alliance in 1213-14 to attack Core Sector/ "The Black Imperium".

So I'm not entertaining how AI-Virus can maintain 1000 Beowulfs here, but how this fleet met its doom. I'm writing within the constraints set before me, and I'm picking your brains--plain and simple.

I tossed out the number "1000" ships based on MT-era data. I stand corrected on 1000 "Capital Ships", with due humility.

The defensive planet's fleets are as per PoT's pages 92-97 for make up of vessels in the Wilds--and even with 0.005% of total manpower for a military, then even further divided as a space force of 5% of that total, they still have 195 & 180 vessels.

Make up of their defensive "fleets" is 1/3 capital vs 2/3's smaller.

Now whartung has postulated a 300-200 ship loss total at Planet A (Sufren). Anyone else have a stab at it?

 

[RandyT0001]

From what I've heard in T20 bay mounted meson weapons are just as effective 'dreadnaught killers' as spinal mounted meson weapons in CT were. Some people might say that 'ships should be balanced in weaponary and not every class of defensive or heavy (cruiser+ sized) ships will have the most powerful weapon mounted'. They would argue that 'the NPC people within the game don't build their ships with game knowledge, knowing that lasers or PA's or missiles, etc. are the big killer'. I say poppycock. Do militaries of today still mount 37mm guns on their tanks or do they go with the 105mm and 120mm guns that have a high probility of killing other tanks? Do militaries of today still mount 16" guns on battleships or do they mount guided missiles on cruisers and destroyers? Therefore IMO, these worlds would probably build as many ships as possible within their 32 years of 'pre-knowledge' that there are Vampire fleets roaming space that have the deadliest big ship killing weapon they can build on as small and as cheap as the weapon could fit in. In CT even planets that did not have class A starports could build their own defensive ships (within the scope of Trillion Credit Squadron). I do not know if there is a similar rule within T20. There might be a tonnage limit for such in T20. In any event 32 years worth of building defensive ships would IMO total more that 195 ships if they had knowledge that Vampire fleets still roam space. (Hey, I'm 'paranoid' and want the best defense money can buy 'cuz when you got lots and lots of big guns nobody f**ks with ya.)
IMO

 

[Liam Devlin]

The book for which this scenario is played out is systemless--meaning, GM/ Refs have their choice of game mechanic to use for their own M:1248campaigns, Mr. Tyler.

Note, that in the scenario, Both Planet A & B have only C-class starport shipyards. No matter the system used, I have to presume that this means they had no starship & spacecraft shipyards.

AgreedSufren , a very militaristic and defensive minded system government from the barest bones we have from TNE-Brilliant Lances adventure "Lady Elise" has undertaken every measure to maintain its small fleet of relic ships, to include even the "Fontenot"-class melding of a S-class Scout as a bridge to the rest of a Gazelle-class CE. This is the snapshot in time we see in 1201, the time of this mini-adventure. Therefore, Sufren (planet A) has not had the ability to Build new spacecraft.

I know I said systemless, (you quote the classic and standard TCS) I look at it using M:0's excellent book "Pocket Empires", moving forwards from a C-class to a B-class shipyard-port takes a minimum of a decade (and thats if all goes according to government plans, expenditure and GNP wise), otherwise, its a 20 year normal progression plan (without critical successes). based on those figures--Planet A might have just achieved a B-class shipyard in late 1210, and the ability to build said massive amounts of SDB's and Fighters remains out of reach and out of this scenario for them.

Now the canon JTAS article for building orbital habitats for worlds of pop 6+ and TL8+, with C+ better ports, does mean Planet A (Sufren) may have invested instead in more orbital and space fortresses such as the "Bear Trap"-class designed further back here in the thread to house and extend their already small numbers.

MT's COACC shows us in the last pages an example of a remote ground controlled Guardian-class satellite system with a single 100dtn bay, and two battery rounds of missiles.In the post Virus age, this would be a manned system by Sufren I believe (page 93, of C COACC btw), or something much like the Bear Trap-class station only smaller.

One of the chief weaknesses of most Vampire ships Sufren had encountered in the Wilds was their lack of missiles. The simple tactic of overhwelming such vessels with missiles (whose surviving energy weapons could be figured out in an initial salvo).

Bear in mind also, The Covenant of Sufren had developed the AVV (Anti Virus Viral) weapon known as "Snake". Their use of remote drone missiles is seen in "Lady Elise", packing of all things, a missile borne version of the electronic weapon.

This of course relies on the vampire ship having an open channel by which the EW AVV can "enter" and wipe out, or severely damage the hostile vessel's AI-Cym entity for a Covenant Marine boarding crew to subsequently seize.

 

[Badbru]

Ahhh Poor Liam, constrained by the handcuffs of Canon. You say you are constricted by working within a framework of other peoples work, namely MJD's excessive(IMHO) fleet size numbers yet you seem to disreguard his own ruling that any planet with sufficient technology level can build it's own ships irrespective of starport type, preferring to again constrain yourself with other canon that describes Sufren as unable to build it's own ships, and yet, it has a Tech level of 12, and a Naval Base. Read up the "Astrogators guide to Diaspora" if you have it (I think it's there) Sufren is mentioned as purchasing it's civilian ships from Talca, amongst others, but that it has allways built it's own Naval vessels.
Irrespective of how you decide to fall on whether they can or do build their own ships prior to contact with the RC, I feel certain that the first assist programme in payment for AVV snake would be re-establishing (if it's not there) Sufrens ship building capabilities. Thus they'd have had atleast a few years prior to 1211 to build ships.

In any event Sufren has maintained it's interstellar capabilities and defended its polity, not just Sufren but the entire polity, since 1129. That's got to mean something. At a guess I'd say they had so many orbital defense platforms you couldn't see the planet from orbit!
Or if that doesn't work for you then as someone else has previously mentioned an entire planet is a damned big spaceship and they've had more than just the years since 1129 to arm it.

Then again I'm biased. I've never agreed with the destruction of Sufren in MJD's work.

Then the next stop for this irresistable fleet is Dethenes? That's Suffren on Steroids! Even in 1211. In my opinion by the time that fleet gets to your third planet, which I've not guessed yet as I've not picked up Vampire Fleets (Is it Ephraim perchance?)that third planet ought to be able to defend itself with a Shukugan and a Beowolf.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Badbru-check your PM.

PS: Dethenes is the next stop for part of what survives Sufren, yes. Your 3rd Guess is incorrect (Planet C).

 

[Hal]

Just dredging up an old thread as an idea strikes me (ow! THAT hurt!)

Just out of curiosity, how difficult would it be to build Meson Spheres that hover inside a gas giant as a form of Area Denial defense systems? They wouldn't be visible, they'd be floating about with atmospheric storms, and they would utilize the atmosphere of the gas giant as a form of cover. The only way they would be utilized is in combat for when ships attempt to refuel.

Now, lets take it one step further. These meson spheres do NOT use meson spinal mounts. Instead, they would utilize 100 dton meson bays. Why? Their purpose isn't to kill large ship hulls. Their purpose is to nail those craft that refuel the larger hulls. Since they'd be smaller "hulls" with limited manuevering capabilities, they'd probably be the kind of hulls that are heavily armored instead.

Any thoughts on the idea?

 

[flykiller]

Any thoughts on the idea?

lots, mostly rehashing. if the meson spheres can hide, then the target ships can hide too. it becomes a sensor ruleset issue, and in a gas giant it also becomes a comms ruleset issue. and then, once a meson gun fires, can its location be determined so the target ships can fire back? more ruleset issues.

if it works, probably be a lot cheaper than mining the gas giant. a mine has to hit the target, but a sensor just has to see it and then somehow tell the meson sphere where the target is - but it has to do so after it and the gun have been bouncing around randomly inside a gas giant atmosphere for a few months. lots of navigation errors there, if one cares to carry the simulation to that level of detail.

 

[Icosahedron]

I agree it's a sensor issue, but a primary advantage of the deep meson gun dirtside is it can't be hit even if it is located - once you've fixed its sensors it's back on line.
Isn't the meson sphere just an up-gunned SDB?

 

[Captain Midnight]

I agree it's a sensor issue, but a primary advantage of the deep meson gun dirtside is it can't be hit even if it is located - once you've fixed its sensors it's back on line.

If you're going to shoot at a deep meson gun with another meson gun, I'd expect that locating it is the only thing you need to do to kill it; after all, it's not like it can dodge incoming fire. Sure, a meson screen might work (though that brings up other issues), but they're not foolproof defenses.

 

[Hal]

The point being is that the atmosphere of the Gas giant works in a manner not unlike that of a world's oceans. Now, take it one step closer. The ONLY time the sensors are capable enough of picking up a target is if the ships are themselves within the gas giant. This makes it knife fighting range as it were. The ships outside the atmosphere can't communicate with the ships within the atmosphere because of the intense radio transmission noise generated by the gas giants themselves. With Meson communicators however, the issue becomes a touch more "interesting" as the ships within the atmosphere can more readily say "Hey, there's an enemy hull 1,500 meters from here." Problem is - the hull within the atmosphere when in attack mode will probably be pulling a shoot-n-scoot manuever. Fire at the target when it is within range and then move the hell away FAST.

In response to the other statement - yes, the spheres would become upgraded SDB craft rather than simple stationary planetary defense systems. The question now becomes one of "how far can a ship be in the atmosphere of a gas giant before it causes problems being detected by ships outside of the atmosphere" as well as "how much do sensors degrade inside an atmosphere?"

GURPS has it that the range of a sensor drops to 10% of its listed space range while inside the atmosphere. Something that can sense an object at 800,000 miles can now only be sensed at a range of 80,000 miles. Enough to make a difference? Perhaps. Perhaps not. What do the other rules systems say?