Do the Citizens of the Imperium Accept or Reject Piracy

[drnuncheon]

I'm sorry, but I simply can't understand how a world that has any concern for its interstellar trade could possibly consider NOT patrolling out to the 100 diameter limit. It's where merchants arrive and depart, it's so close you can cover it with no more than a squadron of vessels, and while they're patrolling, they're also guarding the mainworld.

Not to bring what I gather is another classic holy war into this, but it seems to me that much of this objection would go away if you use jump masking as detailed in GT. Now the volume you have to patrol consists of your star's 100D limit as well as your mainworld's, and the routes between them, making it a much more expensive proposition.

There were a couple of other things that caught in my mind as I read this thread.

A lot depends on the general manner and tactics of the pirates. Someone mentioned that the armed free trader could cause millions of credits worth of damage to a pirate ship - that's true but it goes the other way as well. If the pirate shows up with a "heave to and prepare to be boarded" hail then both ships must decide whether its actually worth it to open fire.

If the pirate is known for spacing everyone on board the ships he takes, then there's no reason not to fight back or try to jump away from within the 100D limit. On the other hand, if he's known for merely taking your cargo, why risk ship and lives attempting to fight or flee? If it's freight, it's probably covered by insurance anyway.

Now maybe you've got a free trader captain who's invested his life's savings into this speculative cargo, and will be ruined if it's taken. (Probably the position most PCs are in). They're the risky ones - probably a decent score but they might well try to fight.

Then again, if the rest of the crew isn't in on the action, they may wonder why they are being asked to risk life and limb for someone else's money, and the captain may quickly find himself de-captained. (At that point, the pirates may find themselves with a new ship and some willing recruits.)

J

 

[rancke]

I'm sorry, but I simply can't understand how a world that has any concern for its interstellar trade could possibly consider NOT patrolling out to the 100 diameter limit. It's where merchants arrive and depart, it's so close you can cover it with no more than a squadron of vessels, and while they're patrolling, they're also guarding the mainworld.

Not to bring what I gather is another classic holy war into this, but it seems to me that much of this objection would go away if you use jump masking as detailed in GT. Now the volume you have to patrol consists of your star's 100D limit as well as your mainworld's, and the routes between them, making it a much more expensive proposition.

It's quite true that jump shadowing and jump masking expands the area that would have to be patrolled and offer pirates a better window of opportunity. Whether this would be enough to make piracy feasible is a matter that I'll leave aside for the moment (pirates face other problems), but I will point out that AFAIK no official rules or material actually incorporate the existence of jump shadowing and jump masking. The encounter tables have modifiers for starport class, but not for stellar class (reasonably enough for CT, because stellar classes wasn't mentioned at all at first); the descriptions of typical trips all go from world jump limit to world jump limit and totally fails to mention the possiblity of longer trips.

I think there are some fascinating ramifications to jump shadowing and jump masking that could do with a thorough exploration. Not just piracy, but more mundane things like fluctuations in transportations costs according to the position along their orbits of neighboring worlds and the seasonal variations that would cause.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Not to bring what I gather is another classic holy war into this, but it seems to me that much of this objection would go away if you use jump masking as detailed in GT. Now the volume you have to patrol consists of your star's 100D limit as well as your mainworld's, and the routes between them, making it a much more expensive proposition.

drnuncheon,

The locals needn't patrol the entire stellar 100D limit. All they need do is patrol the various "best time" exit points associated with their neighboring systems and those points will be relatively tiny. What you've forgotten is jump drive's canonical physical accuracy; -/+ 3000km per parsec jumped. This means a starship can routinely hit a point within 18,000km of it's planned exit point.

For any merchant "time = money" and "normal space = danger". With no ability to vary the time spent in jump space, the only part of the journey where a merchant can save time is the portion spent in normal space. Saving time on their normal space voyage also has the added benefit of avoiding danger. That means they're going to use "best time" entry and exit points between any two given systems.

A "best time" entry point will be that point closest to the departure world in time that also allows unmasked access to a corresponding "best time' exit point in the arrival system. Due to jump masking and jump shadows, plus time variations in jump length, in these entry and exit points are not automatically going to be points on the planetary or stellar 100D limit. However, because they usually won't be that much beyond the planetary and stellar 100D limits, it's much easier if we treat them as such.

Imagine a two parsec trip between Ffudn and Bendor. I don't know if both world's orbit inside their respective solar jump limits but let's assume that they do. Our navigator trainee plots a course between Ffudn's starport and a point on the nearest edge of local solar jump limit. When the trainee next attempts to plot their jump course between that point and the Bendor system, they realize their error. A jump course to Bendor from that point would intersect Ffudn's local solar jump limit.

The trainee scraps their original normal space course to the nearest edge of the local solar jump limit. They next look at all those points that allow an unobstructed jump to Bendor and then choose the one that is closest to Ffudn's starport. That point could still be on the edge of Ffudn's local solar jump limit, just further along, or it could be beyond the local solar jump limit. All that matters is that this new jump entry point is the closest one in time to Ffudn's starport.

The trainee now plots the rest of their jump course determining their exit point in the Bendor system. Of course, they run into trouble there too as it wouldn't be that much of example if they didn't! When examining the range of jump exit points in the Bendor system allowed by their jump entry point in the Ffudn system, they realize that they can exit jump much closer to the Bendor starport if their enter jump point in the Ffudn system changes.

The trainee navigator once again scraps their proposed normal space and jump space courses. Keeping both ends of any jump course in mind, they select a jump entry point in the Ffudn and a jump exit point in the Bendor system that allows both for an unobstructed jump course between both systems and "best time" normal space trips within both systems. The resulting courses our trainee plots will not involve the closest jump entry point to Ffudn's starport or the closest jump exit point to Bendor's starport. Instead, the course will utilize the "best time" entry and exit points in both systems that also allows an unobstructed jump course between them.

And who says navigators don't earn their pay?

The "best time" solution our trainee navigator eventually comes up with will be the same as the "best time" solution any navigator comes up with. That solution will also depend greatly on the time in which it is prepared. Planets move around their stars so their "best time" exit and entry points will move. However, because that planetary movement is predictable, the movement of those points is predictable. So, while the specific course will vary across time, everyone will know that and plan accordingly. Simply put, everyone is going to be using the same solution as there is only one "best time' solution for the Two Parsec Ffudn-to-Bendor at 1300hrs on 135-1105 jump question.

(Even if you add stellar vectors to the equation as I do, and TNE suggests, there will still only be one "best time" solution.)

What does this all mean for piracy? Because there is only one "best time" solution for any given "X Parsec A-to-B at Xhrs on X date" question, the entire 100D planetary or solar jump limit needn't be patrolled. Only known entry and exit points need be watched. While "best time" solutions and their entry/exit points will change over time, the planetary and solar movements that drive those changes are known and predictable so patrols will know where to be and when to be there.

I strongly support the idea of piracy in the Official Traveller Universe. I also strongly support the goal of plausibility. Piracy does exist and piracy along the 100D jump limit does exist. However, piracy along the 100D limit is so rare and fleeting, so dependent on a "Golden Moment", that any such incident should be left to the realm of GM fiat. In other words, it is happening right here and right now because the GM said so and not because of some systemic attribute.


Regards,
Bill

 

[drnuncheon]

The locals needn't patrol the entire stellar 100D limit. All they need do is patrol the various "best time" exit points associated with their neighboring systems and those points will be relatively tiny.

Even considering that, you also have to patrol the routes between there and the various destinations - and the routes, best entry, and best exit points are going to be very different for ships with different real-space performance since they are aiming for a moving target.

What you've forgotten is jump drive's canonical physical accuracy; -/+ 3000km per parsec jumped. This means a starship can routinely hit a point within 18,000km of it's planned exit point.

For all their spatial accuracy, the jump drives also have a tremendous amount of canonical temporal inaccuracy. (Makes me wonder how they can have one without the other…) Sure, you can control where you wind up, but you can't control when you get there. IIRC, it can be up to 10% off in either direction - if you were jumping for a planet with an orbit similar to Earth's, that means the planet could be almost 2 million kilometers from where you expect it to be.

J

 

[Whipsnade]

Even considering that, you also have to patrol the routes between there and the various destinations...

drnuncheon,

Now you're forgetting canonical sensor and weapons ranges. Lasers reach out to two light minutes and sensors reach even further. A patrol needn't squat on top of an exit point and a patrol can cover quite a bit of an in-system route too.

... and the routes, best entry, and best exit points are going to be very different for ships with different real-space performance since they are aiming for a moving target.

Again given canonical weapon and sensor ranges, the differences in covering a 1gee route and a 6gee route is trivial. And the suggestion that a system would somehow picket entry and exit points while also ignoring in-system travel routes isn't even worth discussing.

For all their spatial accuracy, the jump drives also have a tremendous amount of canonical temporal inaccuracy.

Yes, there's roughly a +/- 17 hour arrival window. What any good navigator will do is hope for the best and plan for the worst. The "best time" solution will always use exit points "ahead" of a planet in it's orbit for example. Again, the effect is trivial.

Using your example of Earth, "making up" a 2 million km "mistake" and assuming a mid-course turnover would take just under 8 hours at 1gee and just over 3 hours at 6gees. Without a turnover those times drop to ~5.5 hours and ~2.25 hours respectively, so the amount of time added to any trip would be somewhere between both sets the numbers.

(Makes me wonder how they can have one without the other…)

It's only because you're looking at the problem backwards that it seems impossible for jump drive to have both it's 3000km-per-parsec-jumped physical accuracy and it's +/- 17 hours temporal accuracy.

A ship jumping from Ffudn to Bendor doesn't jump to point measured from Bendor. Instead, it jumps to a point measured from Ffudn.

The Hobby has been examining the idea of piracy in the OTU for over thirty years. You won't be able to raise any issue that hasn't already been seen, any issue that hasn't already been examined, any issue that hasn't already been refuted, or any issue that hasn't already been discarded.

What you do with piracy in YTU is one thing, piracy in the OTU however is something else entirely.


Regards,
Bill

 

[aramis]

Bill, you're wrong about always jumping ahead. It's dependent upon relative motions, which, if large, may result in having to instead decelerate the whole trip to slow down to the planet's orbital speed...

 

[Whipsnade]

Bill, you're wrong about always jumping ahead. It's dependent upon relative motions, which, if large, may result in having to instead decelerate the whole trip to slow down to the planet's orbital speed...

Aramis,

That's why I put the word ahead in quotes. Roping in the relative motion produced by the vectors of the departure and arrival systems would only further confuse a topic that many people have trouble grasping in the first place.

I could have posted a few thousand words on all the ins and outs of spherical navigation among moving objects or I could have boiled it down to a more easily read and grasped post that still got the point across.

I decided to go the "Quick, Fast, Got The Idea Across" route.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Psion]

It's quite true that jump shadowing and jump masking expands the area that would have to be patrolled and offer pirates a better window of opportunity. Whether this would be enough to make piracy feasible is a matter that I'll leave aside for the moment (pirates face other problems), but I will point out that AFAIK no official rules or material actually incorporate the existence of jump shadowing and jump masking.

MongT formally uses jump shadowing (at least mentions it, but doesn't stress the implications.) Myself, I'm happy to ignore it.

I think there are some fascinating ramifications to jump shadowing and jump masking that could do with a thorough exploration.

Myself, I think it would add a complication I don't want to worry about.

 

[rancke]

MongT formally uses jump shadowing (at least mentions it, but doesn't stress the implications.) Myself, I'm happy to ignore it.

CT mentions the existence of jump shadowing and do not stress the implications. If that's all MgT does too, I don't call it using it. I don't mind ignoring it myself, although I do think that properly handled, it has the potential to add depth to the Traveller universe. But if the official material mentions it, then it should be used, not ignored. Contrariwise, if the official material ignores it, why mention it at all?

And if we ignore it, presumably the merchants and pirates will too.


Hans

 

[drnuncheon]

Now you're forgetting canonical sensor and weapons ranges. Lasers reach out to two light minutes and sensors reach even further.

"Ordinary or commercial starships can detect other ships out to a range of about one-half light-second…Military and scout starships have detection ranges out to two light-seconds" (CT Book 2, p32)

HG doesn't mention actual numbers for ranges at all, just "long" and "short".

MongT has "Distant" (for both sensors and weapons) at 50000 km.

GT:IW gives 120k miles (193000 km) as the maximum effective range for the longest range weapons.

…so I guess it all depends on exactly which canon you are using.

A ship jumping from Ffudn to Bendor doesn't jump to point measured from Bendor. Instead, it jumps to a point measured from Ffudn.

And since you want to get to Bendor, the accuracy of your jump relative to Ffudn is meaningless.

However, if the jump is accurate with respect to Ffudn and not Bendor (or their respective stars) then things get even crazier. Let's take the jump to Barnard's Star as an example since we have real data there. The velocity of Barnard's relative to the sun is somewhere around 140 km/s, so your "accurate" jump of ±6000 km is really ±13.7 million km depending on when you get there.

At that point, who even cares about the 6000 km spatial accuracy?

The Hobby has been examining the idea of piracy in the OTU for over thirty years. You won't be able to raise any issue that hasn't already been seen, any issue that hasn't already been examined, any issue that hasn't already been refuted, or any issue that hasn't already been discarded.

Ah, that's what I love to see. The warm, welcoming attitude towards new fans!

More seriously: nobody's forcing you to post in this thread, Bill. If you think everything there is to say about piracy has been said, then why waste your time?

J

 

[rancke]

"Ordinary or commercial starships can detect other ships out to a range of about one-half light-second…Military and scout starships have detection ranges out to two light-seconds" (CT Book 2, p32)

HG doesn't mention actual numbers for ranges at all, just "long" and "short".

MongT has "Distant" (for both sensors and weapons) at 50000 km.

GT:IW gives 120k miles (193000 km) as the maximum effective range for the longest range weapons.

…so I guess it all depends on exactly which canon you are using.

It depends on what the "real" truth is. If one Traveller version says that weapons ranges are 50,000 km and another version says it is 200,000 km, then at least one of them is wrong, wrong, wrong for any single universe. And the OTU is a single universe. So if the discussion is about how piracy works in the OTU, weapons ranges might be 50,000 or it might be 200,000. Or it might vary with the size of the weapon; the rules just ignore that bit. But the pirates and defenders of the "real" universe won't ignore it.

And since you want to get to Bendor, the accuracy of your jump relative to Ffudn is meaningless.

Not at all. If you aim for the place Bendor will be in 168 hours, you will arrive at that point unless something happens to precipitate you out of jump space before you reach that point. Which means that if you get there in, say, 155 hours, Bendor won't have reached that point yet; if you get there in 168 hours, you get precipitated out at Bendor's jump limit; and if you get there in 183 hours, Bendor will have passed that spot and moved on. In all cases you arrive at the same point relative to Ffudn and at different points relatively to Bendor.

However, if the jump is accurate with respect to Ffudn and not Bendor (or their respective stars) then things get even crazier. Let's take the jump to Barnard's Star as an example since we have real data there. The velocity of Barnard's relative to the sun is somewhere around 140 km/s, so your "accurate" jump of ±6000 km is really ±13.7 million km depending on when you get there.

All jump rules are simplified. They ignore such things as jump shadowing, jump masking, and the velocity of worlds in their orbits.

At that point, who even cares about the 6000 km spatial accuracy?

I don't think anyone does, except insofar as the spatial variation is so small as to be completely negligible.

Ah, that's what I love to see. The warm, welcoming attitude towards new fans!

I for one welcome it when newcomers examine our problem children[*] with fresh eyes. Only a few months ago I actually had a new idea about pirates. that wouldn't have happened if someone hadn't stirred up yet another round of the Dread Piracy Debate.

Just don't be surprised if most of your ideas have been debated before. Many times. Many many times. Many, many, many... .



Hans


[*] No! I did NOT say "childish problems"!

 

[Whipsnade]

drnuncheon,

Hans beat me to the punch. His post contained all the responses I would have written.

I will respond to this however:

More seriously: nobody's forcing you to post in this thread, Bill. If you think everything there is to say about piracy has been said, then why waste your time?

No one's forcing you to read my posts either.

Everything that needs to be said about piracy in []iTraveller[/i] has not yet been said. However, nothing you've said about piracy in this thread is something that hasn't already been said about piracy for decades. If you want to discuss something new about piracy then by all means suggest something that is actually new.

I also don't consider my time in threads like these wasted. Quite the contrary. Newcomers to Traveller naturally have a great many questions about it's incredibly detailed setting. I like to answer those questions and help them comprehend the many nuances involved.

You yourself didn't yet realize how jump drive's canonical temporal and spatial accuracy could both be true at the same time. I cleared that up for you and now you can enjoy Traveller all the better.


Bill

 

[drnuncheon]

It depends on what the "real" truth is. If one Traveller version says that weapons ranges are 50,000 km and another version says it is 200,000 km, then at least one of them is wrong, wrong, wrong for any single universe. And the OTU is a single universe.

But there is no way to determine which set of rules is "wrong, wrong, wrong" for the single OTU. Bill made a claim about weapon and sensor ranges that may be right or it may be wrong, depending on which set of rules is right (or closest to right). Of course, he didn't mention that, or which set of rules he was using, he just presented it as a "fact".

Now I happen to think that discussions about the OTU are utterly pointless unless they're there to help people make decisions about TTU. Nobody plays in the OTU. So I think it's helpful and even necessary to point out the foundations these "OTU" assumptions are being made on so that people have all the information for making decisions about how their own works.

Not at all. If you aim for the place Bendor will be in 168 hours, you will arrive at that point unless something happens to precipitate you out of jump space before you reach that point. Which means that if you get there in, say, 155 hours, Bendor won't have reached that point yet; if you get there in 168 hours, you get precipitated out at Bendor's jump limit; and if you get there in 183 hours, Bendor will have passed that spot and moved on. In all cases you arrive at the same point relative to Ffudn and at different points relatively to Bendor.

I understand that completely. You've said exactly what I was saying, but somehow the point got missed.

If I'm shooting a gun, I care about where the bullet lands relative to the target. Saying a gun can put six bullets inside a 1" square is useless if the 1" square is ten feet away from what I wanted to hit.

Jumps are the same way. In this discussion, people have talked about the accuracy of jumps arriving on the 100D limit making it easy to patrol - but the fact is that a lot of ships won't be popping out of jump space on the 100D limit. They'll be millions of km away, and there will be no way to predict when or where they will arrive (making it harder for both pirates and patrollers).

J

 

[rancke]

But there is no way to determine which set of rules is "wrong, wrong, wrong" for the single OTU. Bill made a claim about weapon and sensor ranges that may be right or it may be wrong, depending on which set of rules is right (or closest to right). Of course, he didn't mention that, or which set of rules he was using, he just presented it as a "fact".

There are various ways that may or may not apply to this specific example. If most Traveller versions say the same thing (and it's not self-contradictory), that one's probably right. So jumps require 10% of ship's tonnage per jump number in jump fuel, not what the MT rules claim they require. If a rule is self-contradictory or contradicts basic physics without explicitly acknowledging it, it isn't true. If a rule ignores obvious ramifications, it's not true. So ships don't really need 1% of ship's tonnage per power plant number in order to run for 28 days. If a rule ignores crucial factors, it's only applicable in the limited circumstances that it covers. So if a military ship can only detect other ships at a distance of two light-seconds in 20 minutes, it can presumably do better over longer time spans, and multiple ships and/or system arrays can presumably do better than single ships.

Now I happen to think that discussions about the OTU are utterly pointless unless they're there to help people make decisions about TTU. Nobody plays in the OTU. So I think it's helpful and even necessary to point out the foundations these "OTU" assumptions are being made on so that people have all the information for making decisions about how their own works.

I think that agreeing on how a shared universe work does a lot to increase the utility of said universe. If you write an adventure or system description that assumes that a pirate can sneak into a system as long as it stays more that half a light-second away from any ship in the system, I won't be able to use it. And if I write a system description or adventure that assumes that any pirate that gets within two light-seconds of another ship or detertor array gets discovered instantly while any one that lurks in the system for any length of time has an increasing chance of being detected, you apparently won't be able to use it.

If I'm shooting a gun, I care about where the bullet lands relative to the target. Saying a gun can put six bullets inside a 1" square is useless if the 1" square is ten feet away from what I wanted to hit.

If you're shooting at a moving train and only care about hitting it, is it useful to be able to hit a particular spot without having to worry about the projectile having an inaccuracy of dozens of meters?

Jumps are the same way. In this discussion, people have talked about the accuracy of jumps arriving on the 100D limit making it easy to patrol - but the fact is that a lot of ships won't be popping out of jump space on the 100D limit. They'll be millions of km away, and there will be no way to predict when or where they will arrive (making it harder for both pirates and patrollers).

Say you're aiming for a world that moves 200 planetary diameters in 30 hours (This, I've been told, is fairly close to what Earth does (Please correct me if that's wrong)). What you do is aim for the spot the world will be in 168 hours. If you arrive in 153 hours (15 hours early), you will find yourself at the 100 diameter limit. If you arrive in 183 hours (15 hours late), you will arrive at the 100 diameter limit. If you arrive any time in between, wou will be precipitated out somewhere along the 100 diameter limit. It's only if you arrive more than 15 hours early or more than 15 hours late that you'll find yourself more that 100 diameters away. If we assume (as I do and as a couple of game rules imply) that temporal variation follows a bell curve, very late and very early arrivals will be very rare. Which means that a game rule that ignores those rare occurrences is just a perfectly reasonable simplification of the "real" situation.



Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

OTU Uber Alles!

/ka-snip/

Now I happen to think that discussions about the OTU are utterly pointless unless they're there to help people make decisions about TTU. Nobody plays in the OTU. So I think it's helpful and even necessary to point out the foundations these "OTU" assumptions are being made on so that people have all the information for making decisions about how their own works.
/ka-snippity/

J

Point of fact, I love and do play strictly in the OTU. Now who's spewing without checking their "facts"? Unless, I suddenly became Nobody, but I think not, I know Nobody, and...oh darn you're right he doesn't play in the OTU, but then he doesn't play Traveller, but when and if he does and I am running, he will, because I play OTU.

Oh, and as for the spatial variance versus temporal variance in Jump Theory, what if we consider that the jumping vessel is travelling through jumpspace as a temporal shift, not so much a spatial shift. I mean the temporal variance is much more pronounced by the mere fact it's FTL, thus a form of time travel, more than a space travel. Could it be that the start and end points of space are quantum entangled at the beginning of the jump with a stronger entanglement spatially and less strongly temporally? If that makes any sense. I do have my Doctorate in Handwavium and Unobtainium Use, but I just got home from work and soon for sleep, so logic and grammar circuits might be shot...

mega:
Professor Thornwood.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Actually I see two types of Traveller adventures

+ Generics

These adventures will mostly play on a planet with space travel as a background element. Sensor ranges etc. have no meaning here since they simply won't come into play

+ Rules specific

This is written for a specific RULES version and may or may not be adaptabel. For those you either use the designated rules set or re-work the adventure.


Pirat scenarios will often fall into the latter (Vigilantie shows one that does not) and therefor will only work with a certain rules set without some work. WHAT rules-set is the GMs choice.

Since I view rules seperat from the setting and since combat/space combat basically is the ONLY part where the rules have any effects on a scenario it's always the OTU no matter if one is using MT or TNE or GURPS rules. I can see no need to "unify" the rule sets or in-universe behaviours.

==============

Oh and I agree with Magnus: I do play strictly OTU. Given that the OTU is a very loosely defined body of facts that is quite easy to do.

 

[Mark Morgan]

up stream a bit someone was complaining that it made little sense for accuality (in spacial location) without predectablity in how long you spend in jump space not making sense.

well at the rsk of being silly (invoking Quantum Mech and Heisenberg principles) In such physics accuracy in one demision of measurement tends to place limits another measuable item in physic as I recall the more accurately you determine speed the less accualately you CAN determine postion in in space.

It would seem to GET spacail accuaratcy it was requiered by the Physics to give up some predicatablity in how the jump would take

It would also seem likely these limits are a result of engeineering compromises IOW since ywe wabt /need as much spacail accualcy as we can get we traded off to the extent we could stand knowledge of how the trip would take

Our drives could be engineered to be more accualarate in terms of how the the time in jump space would would last but we would have to shead targeting accuracy to some extent

 

[atpollard]

Say you're aiming for a world that moves 200 planetary diameters in 30 hours (This, I've been told, is fairly close to what Earth does (Please correct me if that's wrong)). What you do is aim for the spot the world will be in 168 hours. If you arrive in 153 hours (15 hours early), you will find yourself at the 100 diameter limit. If you arrive in 183 hours (15 hours late), you will arrive at the 100 diameter limit. If you arrive any time in between, you will be precipitated out somewhere along the 100 diameter limit. It's only if you arrive more than 15 hours early or more than 15 hours late that you'll find yourself more that 100 diameters away. If we assume (as I do and as a couple of game rules imply) that temporal variation follows a bell curve, very late and very early arrivals will be very rare. Which means that a game rule that ignores those rare occurrences is just a perfectly reasonable simplification of the "real" situation.

Hans

Yeah, what he said!

 

[Whipsnade]

In this discussion, people have talked about the accuracy of jumps arriving on the 100D limit making it easy to patrol...

drnuncheon,

We've been using the term "100D limit" because it's easier and faster to type than "Region of space somewhat near the 100D limit that ships will arrive in". It's a bit of shorthand, that's all.

... but the fact is that a lot of ships won't be popping out of jump space on the 100D limit. They'll be millions of km away, and there will be no way to predict when or where they will arrive (making it harder for both pirates and patrollers).

You still don't understand, do you? The distance of the jump exit "region" away from the target world is irrelevant because the jump exit "region" is relatively tiny and wholly predictable. You're still fixated on the target world when all navigation in this case references the departure world. Let's use our Ffudn-to-Bendor example again.

At any given time, there is one best-time solution for a trip between Ffudn and Bendor. Such a trip consists of a trip through normal space in the Ffudn system, a trip through jump space between Ffudn and Bendor, and a trip through normal space in the Bendor system. As previously explained, our navigator will plot a combined course taking all sorts of factors into consideration and one of the biggest factors will be jump drive's temporal accuracy.

Because the navigator can't know exactly when he'll arrive in the Bendor system, he can't know exactly where Bendor will actually be. That means he doesn't "aim" at Bendor at all. Instead he "aims" at a point a certain distance from Ffudn that Bendor will be "passing by". He knows he can arrive at that point measured from Ffudn within 6000km error, he also knows he'll arrive at that point within a 17 hour window, so he chooses a point that will do him the most good over the most time. In other words, he plans for the worst and hopes for the best.

Patrols in the Bendor system are going to be navigating much the same way. They know that, for any given time, the best-time solution for a Ffudn-to-Bendor trip will use a certain exit point and that exit point will be measured in relation to Ffudn. They'll then picket that point, a point that seems to be moving in relation to Bendor over a 17 hour jump exit window but is actually fixed in relation to Ffudn given the time at which any potential jump occurred.

Naturally, as Ffudn and Bendor move within their respective systems and as those systems themselves move, the best-time solution will constantly change. That change is wholly predictable however and the patrollers will be able to move their pickets and patrols accordingly.

Also, because a best-time solution will contain a jump exit point that assists a vessel's trip within the arrival system, you won't see ships emerging 17 hours "behind" the mainworld either. The 3 million km (or longer) trips you mention could very well occur but, when you remember canonical weapon/sensor ranges(1), covering those distances is easier than you assume. Even given lengthy in-system voyages, the idea that any patrol organization would allow a vessel to loiter near jump exit points or along transit routes without contacting and/or challenging such a vessel is farcical.

As is always pointed out in these discussions, people continually underestimate the time required for one vessel to match vectors and dock with another. I often suggest that they pull out Mayday or LBB:2 and set up the situation to see just how long such docking takes. Even if both ships begin on closely matching vectors, the time necessary is quite an eye opener.

I strongly[/] support piracy in the OTU. Piracy is both canonical and fun. What I don't support is a Yo-ho-ho Hollywood model of piracy. The OTU is it's own 'fictional reality' and like reality the OTU has it's own rules. The possibility of any event within the OTU must depend on the rules within the OTU. Given the OTU's rules, piracy between a world's jump limit and it's port is simply too hard to pull off and too dangerous for the pirates to occur with anything resembling regularity. A "golden moment" involving "ethically challenged merchants" can and does occur, but those moments are so fleeting that they're best viewed as GM fiat and not as a systemic event.

When you have new ideas regarding piracy - AND YOU WILL - I will be eager to discuss them with you. Until then, I'll let you know when you proposals are not new, have already been examined, have already been refuted, and have already been discarded.


Regards,
Bill


1 - The ranges in MgT are wrong. While the ranges in MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and T5 do vary somewhat from the ranges listed in CT's LBB;2, Mayday, and HG2, they do not vary anywhere nearly as much as those you quoted from MgT.

Just as how every other version of Traveller canon states the Aslan are the result of normal evolution while MgT canon states they're uplifted, this isn't a case of which canon to choose as "correct". Instead, this is a case of Mongoose *ing up again. Mongoose has made yet another mistake and your current ideas regarding piracy in the OTU are predicated on that mistake.

 

[drnuncheon]

Ooh, hey, I touched a nerve with my "nobody plays in the OTU" comment...

...but I stand by it. As soon as you make it your own, even just a little bit, it's YTU and not the OTU. And you can't run a game without making it your own. (Well...maybe, But it won't be a very good one.)

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

Say you're aiming for a world that moves 200 planetary diameters in 30 hours (This, I've been told, is fairly close to what Earth does (Please correct me if that's wrong)).

Moves in relation to what?

In 30 hours, the Earth moves 3 million km in its orbit - that's far less than the 100D limit of 12 million km. So sure, you're fine making an in-system jump. Assuming jump precipitation works, you're golden.

In 30 hours, the Earth moves (roughly) 15 million km with respect to Barnard's Star. So now there's (potentially) 3 million km of error.

You still don't understand, do you? The distance of the jump exit "region" away from the target world is irrelevant because the jump exit "region" is relatively tiny and wholly predictable. You're still fixated on the target world when all navigation in this case references the departure world.

I'm "fixated" on the target world because that is where I'm going. Forgive me if that seems sensible.

That means he doesn't "aim" at Bendor at all. Instead he "aims" at a point a certain distance from Ffudn that Bendor will be "passing by". He knows he can arrive at that point measured from Ffudn within 6000km error, he also knows he'll arrive at that point within a 17 hour window, so he chooses a point that will do him the most good over the most time. In other words, he plans for the worst and hopes for the best.

Sure. I never claimed otherwise.

Patrols in the Bendor system are going to be navigating much the same way. They know that, for any given time, the best-time solution for a Ffudn-to-Bendor trip will use a certain exit point and that exit point will be measured in relation to Ffudn. They'll then picket that point, a point that seems to be moving in relation to Bendor over a 17 hour jump exit window but is actually fixed in relation to Ffudn given the time at which any potential jump occurred.

Here's where the problem is. The patrols do not know when a ship leaves Ffudn for Bendor. A ship could be leaving at any time. So they can't picket "the exit point", they have to picket the entire area of where people might exit - which is to say, anything from the 100D limit out to the farthest point a ship might drop in if it departed the minimum travel time ago. And they have to do that for every system that they care about the incoming traffic from.

If you add in jump masking (which is how all this got started) and the possibility that the best jump still puts you somewhere on the 100D limit of the sun instead of the mainworld, then you also have to protect the paths for ships from the best exit point to the mainworld (which are going to be different based on the ships performance).

The 3 million km (or longer) trips you mention could very well occur but, when you remember canonical weapon/sensor ranges(1)

You still haven't mentioned which canon. It's none of the ones I've seen.

1 - The ranges in MgT are wrong. While the ranges in MT, TNE, T4, GT, T20, and T5 do vary somewhat from the ranges listed in CT's LBB;2, Mayday, and HG2, they do not vary anywhere nearly as much as those you quoted from MgT.

It's a fictional rule. "Wrong" is relative.

Mongoose has made yet another mistake and your current ideas regarding piracy in the OTU are predicated on that mistake.

I think you're looking at this backwards. I've said this before but I will try again:

Piracy in the OTU does not interest me in and of itself. I'm not trying to score Traveller geek points here. However, as you have repeatedly pointed out, it's something that's been discussed and thought about a lot under a certain set of assumptions.

The thing is that not everybody plays using those same assumptions. Some people are playing Mongoose Traveller with their wrong-wrongity-wrong weapon and sensor ranges. Some people are playing GURPS Traveller with its jump masking. Some people might be playing CT, but they're saying "how could I change things to make piracy more probable?"

So instead of saying "I love piracy but it's next to impossible and if you disagree you just don't understand", I want to examine what assumptions and axioms make it next to impossible, and see what happens when we change them.

What happens if you don't assume sensors and weapons with light-minute ranges? What happens when jump masking is taken into account? How do these things change what is logical or plausible?

Ultimately, I think that's going to be more interesting and far more helpful to GMs.