Disappointment about the numerous Errata...

[Elianka]

I was ready to accept a certain level of errata but I would have guessed, even in a very large book like this one, the grammatical correction and system mechanic errata would have been corrected after so many years of development process?

Since I didn't get ANY beginning of an answer in the "T5 Errata Discussion Thread" I decided to have one of my own...
Sorry if some Hardcore Blindfolded FANs get offended, which isn't my goal!

Why some money wasn't invested in an independent grammatical review and error proofing?

Why after so long and much alpha, beta testing and mechanic proofing there is still so many anomalies?

Why the project wasn't professionally edited, formatted, INDEXED according to the current standards?

Why and why taking action AFTER the publication….???

Maybe the answers are somewhere among these threads… but please can someone provide a summary of enlighten explanations.
It will be very much appreciated!!!!

Thanks

Éli,
A FAN who can't sanely explains those issues with the current services and technologies available.

 

[cuTTer]

I was ready to accept a certain level of errata but I would have guessed, even in a very large book like this one, the grammatical correction and system mechanic errata would have been corrected after so many years of development process?

Since I didn't get ANY beginning of an answer in the "T5 Errata Discussion Thread" I decided to have one of my own...
Sorry if some Hardcore Blindfolded FANs get offended, which isn't my goal!

Why some money wasn't invested in an independent grammatical review and error proofing?

Why after so long and much alpha, beta testing and mechanic proofing there is still so many anomalies?

Why the project wasn't professionally edited, formatted, INDEXED according to the current standards?

Why and why taking action AFTER the publication….???

Maybe the answers are somewhere among these threads… but please can someone provide a summary of enlighten explanations; it will be very much appreciated!!!!

Thanks

Éli,
A FAN who can't sanely explains those issues with the current services and technologies available.

Give it a month or two and some useful responses may be forthcoming, I'm not sure any of us have the answers you're looking for.

 

[Jazzlvraz]

Why some money wasn't invested in an independent grammatical review and error proofing?

Why after so long and much alpha, beta testing and mechanic proofing there is still so many anomalies?

Why the project wasn't professionally edited, formatted, INDEXED according to the current standards?

As there's likely to be no answer that covers anyone with glory--or avoids ignominy--I'd not expect to get your answer. Many of us have asked, privately and publicly, and nothing's been forthcoming; I expect never to hear an answer, as one would lead only to more questions.

 

[mechascorpio]

Why some money wasn't invested in an independent grammatical review and error proofing?

I believe some have insisted that it was. Which means... it could have been worse? o:

Why after so long and much alpha, beta testing and mechanic proofing there is still so many anomalies?

Because the hardcore fans accept it. Way too often have I seen over the past few months, "Oh, it's Traveller, all editions are like this." The excuse used to be time and resources in order to meet the deadlines required for the distribution channel. But this was a document years in the making and paid for in advance through Kickstarter patronage, so that doesn't apply. Which takes me back to "because hardcore fans accept it."

Why the project wasn't professionally edited, formatted, INDEXED according to the current standards?

"Who needs an Index when you can use the search feature of the PDF?!" Again, that's what some keep saying. Now they don't have to say it again in this thread, and perhaps come up with better reason, especially as it applies to a physical book.

Why and why taking action AFTER the publication….???

I wasn't in the beta so I didn't see what was hidden for years behind the paywall, but I have to wonder if the same amount of effort was being put forth back then as it is now. Sure, occasionally someone will say "Well, I brought this up during the beta and the playtest...," but based on the evaluations and solutions for what's being discussed now for such basics as broken task resolution, broken combat, tables that don't match, terminology that is never defined, fists that are more powerful than guns, etc., it seems more effort is being expended now.

Of course, we must remember: "T5 is not a role-playing game, it's a toolkit!" Like Peter Pan, if that's repeated often enough, perhaps it will become true.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

As for no Index...

The reason for there being no index, is at least part of the blame samich I will eat, as honestly folks I never thought of bringing it up.

Why not, I am sure you are wondering, well, because I don't think I have ever used an index for any gaming book. Hell, I rarely use them in non-fiction books, so for me it wasn't an issue till everyone started bagging T5 for not having one. I guess it is like the dice tables, turns out that several people dig them when I thought they were neat but not worth putting in. Turns out I was wrong (true, it does happen sometimes, but not often ), sort of like I never thought of an index for a gaming book.

So, if it makes you feel better to blame someone, you can blame me. I can take it, I put my grown up skin on today.

Now, as to your complaints regarding Personal Combat, those I got nothing for, but since I run abstract (extremely rules light) most of the time, I suspect I shall continue to be a raving fan boy and love that too.

And people, really, the Book is coming, have some patience. I got my name it and just got my stuff, so when you are feeling put out, remember that.

Now all that said, be aware this is just me, I don't speak for Marc or FFE here in anyway, just as a Beta participant. Which by the way may have been part of why it has some errata (other than huge projects are never perfect), we were constantly changing things to try and make it all work together.

Sorry it isn't your cup of tea and that some of you still don't have your stuff yet, but I hope in the future you will give it second chance (and that you all get your stuffs soon).

 

[Baltech Budapest]

Magnus, thank you.
That is the most encouraging message I have read since I ordered the book.
I run rules light and abstract so your words give me hope.
As far as the non-appearance of my package is concerned (and I mentioned this to Marc and Don), I have no problem waiting but honest communication is like gold to me, and I think I speak for all who don't know what's happening.
Having to order the book from a retailer because I fear that my initial order from FFE was not going to appear is just not good and is a result of very very poor communication, short replies, and (seemingly) empty promises.
I love Traveller and will play it before I even think about touching any other RPG. I want to love T5 if given the chance to do so.
And just a final comment from me as I realise I have posted a lot of negative comments here over the past few days due to frustration: my brother, my son and I have just finished a short D&D adventure which my 13 year old son was DMing tonight. We were playing BECM rules using the Cyclopedia. At the end of the adventure our conversation turned to Traveller and to Marc Miller. Our shared opinion is that MM is a living legend. The Gygax of SciFi RPGs. Sadly the whole miscommunication and confusion over my T5 order has tainted the 'hero worship' view.
However, I'm an optimist in general and I believe in happy endings.
In my frustration I had forgotten how genuinely excited I was/am about receiving the T5 book. If my order ships from Marc I will have the book and dice. The book I ordered from Noble Knight will be for my son.

 

[GrayPennell]

Thanks Magnus

I think it would be interesting to hear more from the Beta Testers. I agree if you can handle abstract combat it works if its not your cup of tea you wont be happy. When it comes to errata we are still only at 2% error rate thats not to bad for 600 pages. As a librarian my first though was to moan about the missing index but I have looked at the book closely and decided an index would have been wasted space. The chapters are clear and there isn't much cross over between them. We also know space was premium issue when you see how much Marc omitted from the book I would rather have a bestiary or ship ID than an index.

 

[selunatic2397]

I'll buy mine tomorrow at my local gaming store...as a completist I am buying it to have it...that and to rip it apart for the good stuff I will drop into my traveller universe.

 

[pendragonman]

..that and to rip it apart for the good stuff I will drop into my traveller universe.

Exactly what I am doing with it.

 

[selunatic2397]

Glad to see I'm in good company here!

 

[Elianka]

I believe some have insisted that it was. Which means... it could have been worse? o:

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Of course, we must remember: "T5 is not a role-playing game, it's a toolkit!" Like Peter Pan, if that's repeated often enough, perhaps it will become true.

Thanks for your explanations an opinions!
I guess it is the only one I might get from here.
The Thread is sadly already about something else...


'Let me be clear for the other members and the generations to come:

I don't have a faith crisis about the delivery of my Noble Edition, a second book and other goodies,
nor do I have any worries about Marc fixing any issues that may raise, if any...
I have no doubt and I fully respect and have full confidence in Marc regarding that matter.
If someone has trust issue pertaining to that fact, don't use my words to give shape to your fear because I have none.'


Any modern edition has an index and an helpful glossary.
Why? because humans are distinctive and we don't learn, work and evolve in the same way...
So yes Index, Glossary, References are all good and a must have even if not always used or useful for certain intelligencia.
I wasn't looking for a guilty party or to point a finger... a lot more at understanding the Why and How!

As I mentioned, when I started the thread, I was expecting errata.
Specially around this massive project of creativity and effort.
But again, I though it could have reach a higher maturity, be more cohesive and flexible.

Also I was hoping it would be a major keystone for anyone willing to use Traveller5 and immerse himself in a Far Future...
For that I still have to review and dig a lot more than what I have done.... before commenting!

For all other subjects out of thread... well I wasn't asking not questioning any of these...

If my thread can be helpful relaxing some information... that's great!

But I think, there is the "T5 Errata" and "T5 Errata Discussion" Threads for those!
I was all about getting my answers and any related comments.

Thanks,

Éli,

 

[Shonner]

Of course, we must remember: "T5 is not a role-playing game, it's a toolkit!" Like Peter Pan, if that's repeated often enough, perhaps it will become true.

It's not even good as a toolkit.

 

[aramis]

It's not even good as a toolkit.

I don't know about that.

The following can be ported into homebrewed hybrids fairly easily:

• Revised system generation
• Ship Construction (in whole or in pieces-parts)
• Trade and Commerce
• Sophont Generation

THe following require more work:

• Gunmaker
• Vehiclemaker†
• Thingmaker†

 

[GrayPennell]

So Elianka what did you want this thread to be about? I saw it as another complaint thread and I tried to point out my point of view.

I know a few of you were around for T4 release and similar complaints were all over the TML and Traveller IRC. The responses to the complaints were also similar even down to the at least its not "insert your hated Traveller Ed. Often TNE"

You have to ask why are we in the same pattern. It's simply a question of gaming exceptions. Some people want a simulation with a lot of crunch, others are open story tellers. If you look at CT, T4 and T5 you can figure Marc leans to story telling. Look closely at these eds. and you will see that.

Then there is the tool kit vs game issue (campaign setting) I agree T5 is more a tool kit than campaign. Again this harkens back to CT. Traveller was't Traveller till the supplments, adventures and JTAS came out and created the universe we love. Instead CT was about building a SF game just like T5 but T5 comes with even more cool things like clones,, aliens and QREBS or even sense. T5 includes many things that traditionally were developed in supplements like robots, and sensors or computers. It has makers like Gun and Starships that were often on other books.

Speaking of starships Marc brought back the small ship universe as oppose to large ships. He also brought back the abstract combat even with range bands of CT.

In essence it seems Marc is building on his first love CT. If you don't like CT you wont like T5. If you want a set of rules that spell everything out creating an out of the box simulation you wont like T5.

As for me CT was my second RPG and I am fond of it. I look forward to fun things like adventures, and background supplements. I will play or run an abstract game and create house rules like we did in the 70s. TI find joy in RPGs DIY universes.

 

[aramis]

Speaking of starships Marc brought back the small ship universe as oppose to large ships.

No, he didn't. BCS is an intended part of the T5 experience, cut due to time and space constraints, but slated for an expansion.

Page 642 includes an illo of the Tigress class.

Also, note that not even all the ships of The Traveller Adventure can be built using T5 as released - ACS caps at 2400 tons, tho' it's formulaic (unlike Bk2), so you can extend the tables as you see fit without any real guesswork.

 

[Shonner]

I'm reading through Traveller 4. What a world of difference. A much better game, as well as better game rules. It's written like an RPG. Shocking.

 

[Elianka]

So Elianka what did you want this thread to be about? I saw it as another complaint thread and I tried to point out my point of view.
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In essence it seems Marc is building on his first love CT. If you don't like CT you wont like T5. If you want a set of rules that spell everything out creating an out of the box simulation you wont like T5.

As for me CT was my second RPG and I am fond of it. I look forward to fun things like adventures, and background supplements. I will play or run an abstract game and create house rules like we did in the 70s. TI find joy in RPGs DIY universes.

Hello Again!

My original questions remain...

Why some money wasn't invested in an independent grammatical review and error proofing?
Why after so long and much alpha, beta testing and mechanic proofing there is still so many anomalies?
Why the project wasn't professionally edited, formatted, INDEXED according to the current standards?
Why and why taking action AFTER the publication….???

and could be summarized as Why after this extraordinary success on KickStarter, the extra time and effort weren't spent to make it more cohesive, flexible with proper navigating tools and references, formatting, graphics of any modern publications using the latest tech available and also reduce the number of errata related to the system mechanic?
*That would be my main complaint!

A simple review from a panel of devoted FANs would have certainly fixed most of the issues raised in other threads! The extra time required to revise and publish the book would have been well spend! *Again a certain level of errata was unavoidable and impossible to please all the FANs!

I'm not talking about "Threads of Hatred" because mine wasn't intended as one!
If it was perceived as such then I'm deeply sorry! I thought my questions were simple and straight forward!
I was mainly expressing a disappointment/dissatisfaction/disillusion.
I guess it was my real negative thought and was seeking public justifications and answers.

I fully appreciate your point of view and statements as anybody else comments which clarify many causes and contexts. Thank you all by the way!
At the exception of pure and easy T5 bashing.. I wasn't in that negative state... I still have great hope for T5. I simply feel that it will need a lot of work, errata, addendum.

As background, I'm a late CT player and it was my second RPG right after AD&D that I played in secret with my father. MT is my favorite among all other systems for its details despite the infamous number of errata. I would probably hate New Era and like Mongoose... T20 would have been nice but failed to reach the FANs and my interest faded!

Hope it brings some light and peace to everyone!

Thanks again all!

Éli,

 

[HG_B]

Then there is the tool kit vs game issue (campaign setting)

Incorrect. Lack of a pregenerated setting does not equal a "toolkit". Example: D&D 3.x PHB, MM & DMG didn't have a campaign setting. It wasn't a "toolkit".

 

[PFVA63]

...
A simple review from a panel of devoted FANs would have certainly fixed most of the issues raised in other threads! The extra time required to revise and publish the book would have been well spend! *Again a certain level of errata was unavoidable and impossible to please all the FANs!
...

To be honest they were made available to fans for review

 

[Shonner]

To be honest they were made available to fans for review

Yes. Fanboys were the problem.