BlackBat242
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The first novel in the series is The Pride of Chanur (1981).
defelination of the Aslan
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Madarin Dude
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Well SFB's Kzinti are based on the Star Trek the animated series Kzinti. http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Kzinti SFB is odd in that it really adheres to the animated series for a lot of its background. It is derived from Larry Nivens Kzinti but just want to shwo it has a basis in the series. they are featured in the episode the slaver weapon. they talk like carl from sling blade in the show.
Well to make them a bit different and keep them somewhat the same. Do to them what evolution did to humans. Over time humans lost hair on their bodies. (with a few exceptions like myself) So you can have them as not furry just having manes etc and having exposed skin. This will give them a bit of a different feel and seem less catlike and still make the appearance match the drawings etc.
Well to make them a bit different and keep them somewhat the same. Do to them what evolution did to humans. Over time humans lost hair on their bodies. (with a few exceptions like myself) So you can have them as not furry just having manes etc and having exposed skin. This will give them a bit of a different feel and seem less catlike and still make the appearance match the drawings etc.
Too bad Enterprise died in Season 4. I hear if Season 5 would have come about, the Kzin would have made an appearance.
I thought they did a good job with the Gorn in the mirror eps and the CGI insectoids weren't bad.
>
^ There is a Kzin battlecruiser model at Memory Alpha that was reportedly for Enterprise and it looked like it was lifted from SFB. An interesting point is that this design would have canonized the three nacelle designs of Franz Joseph that Gene Roddenberry dismissed.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Kzinti_vessel_c2150s.jpg
IMHO, it was refreshing for ENT to get away from bumpy headed humanoids with the Xindi Aquatics and Insectoids, Tholians, and even the Gorn (although it did look emaciated compared to Kirk's); it would have been nice to see the Kzinti. And the nod to the long tradition of SFB is a nice touch.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:Kzinti_vessel_c2150s.jpg
IMHO, it was refreshing for ENT to get away from bumpy headed humanoids with the Xindi Aquatics and Insectoids, Tholians, and even the Gorn (although it did look emaciated compared to Kirk's); it would have been nice to see the Kzinti. And the nod to the long tradition of SFB is a nice touch.
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BlackBat242,
All that's true, but much of what we now know about the Kzinti was written after Traveller was published. Certain aspects of the Aslan might have influenced the Kzinti.
While there are a few details about them in Niven's short stories and the first Ringworld novel, the real explosion in Kzinti details occurs in the 1990s when Niven licensed the Man - Kzin Wars shared universe series. In one story in that series it was revealed that the Kzinti didn't invent the gravity polarizer they used as an interstellar(1) drive. Instead, they'd been hired as "barbarian" mercenaries by an alien race called the Jotok, rebelled against the Jotok, took their technology, and enslaved them.
The Kzinti - Jotok story came out well after the "Pathfinder" - Alsan did in Traveller.
The Aslan, Kzinti, and Hani have all clearly influenced each other. There's an interesting graduate paper in this question for some bright comparative literature student.
Regards,
Bill
The Aslan, Kzinti, and Hani may have influenced each other, but there is little real evidence of that (or rather, I've seen very little evidence of it; for all I know Cherryh, Niven & the Man-Kzin Wars bunch, and the GDW crowd have all written diaries where they record being inspired by each other's writings).
Come on, how much original thought does it take to base an alien race on lions? And just what sort of characteristics would you come up with if you hadn't read about Aslan, Kzinti, and Hani?
Post hoc non ergo propter hoc -- just because one event follows another doesn't mean that the first one necessarily caused the second.
Hans
Actually, I think it was Cherryh, the author in question said that their felinoid race was influenced by Traveller's Aslan. I was just trying to remember which author it was at the time of my last post. The others I can't vouch for, I just know one established sci fi writer said they were influenced by the Aslan, and I think it was Cherryh.
Veni Vidi Vici, quid pro quo, et cetera.
Hans,
Not much. But how about three separate felinoid races that all recieve their setting's star drive from another species? It's that very specific detail- plus the sexual division of labor all three exhibit - that has me wondering.
As Ganymede correctly pointed out, Cherryh admits that the Aslan influenced her hani. GDW alumni have always admitted that the Kzinti influenced the Aslan. That gives us the following chain: Niven/Kzin begat GDW/Aslan begat Cherryh/hani.
Then, when you add each settings stardrive story to the mix, the relationship gets stood on it's head!
The Kzinti do appear first, but the story of them and the Jotok appeared last. In the case of the stardrive we have this chain:
- GDW creating the Aslan in the late 1970s. The Pathfinder story, while not explicitly revealed, is hinted at from the beginning.
- Cherryh creating the hani in the early 1980s, who she admits are influenced by the Aslan. The story of the menhendosat(sic)(1) giving the hani that setting's stadrive appears in one of the Chanur series books later in the 1980s.
- The Kzinti/Jotok story appearing in a Man-Kzin short story in the 1990s. While the story isn't written by Niven, it is authorized/okayed by him.
While I'm not claiming that the people involved "stole" or "copied" from each other, I am rather intrigued by the influence each seemed to have on the other.
We've admissions from GDW and Ms. Cherryh that previous felinoid species influenced the creation of their own felinoid species. With that fact in hand, I don't think it's a too much to suggest that GDW's Pathfinder story may have influenced the hani/mehendosat(sic) and Kzinti/Jotok stories that followed.
That's why I suggested that some reasonably bright graduate student could get a nice paper out of the subject. While such a paper would examine the idea, it wouldn't necessarily have to prove it. Graduate students, especially those in the humanities, produce very interesting papers on a variety of cultural subjects. One recent paper I read excerpts from used the short films of The Three Stooges to trace changing mores(2) in mid-20th Century America. When you remember that the Stooges made films from the early 1930s to the late 1950s, you realize you have what is known as a single unit of film that covers three important decades in history.
Regards,
Bill
1 - The menhendosat, whose name I'm can neither remember accurately or correctly spell, are the primate-like species in the Compact. They contacted the hani and performed a technological uplift of that species in order to create a counter balance to the kiff within the Compact.
2 - For example; in the 30s the Stooges are either living at the town dump scrouging for food or running from the cops while in the 50s they're investing in smog bags or being kidnapped by flying saucers.
Good thing I put in that caveat. If Cherryh herself states ('admit' is a value-laden term with connotations that are inappropriate in this connection) that she was influenced by the Aslan, I'll take her word for it. I take it you have this from a reliable and verifiable source? It's not just something that "everybody knows"?
Ber that as it may, this diverts attention from my main point: That the idea of a lionoid alien race is hardly so unique and original that if more than one author uses it, one of them MUST have gotten it from the other. I wouldn't be surprised if there are examples of lionoid races that predate the Kintzi (aren't they more tigery, BTW?), altough I can't think of one. But I know for sure that there are earlier felinoid races (Cordwainer Smith), and if you reduce the idea to its basic element (take an Earth animal and make your alien race sort of resemble it), well...
The Hani may very well be a nod to the Aslan and/or the Kintzi, but I think you need the word of the author to prove it.
Ideas are cheap. What's interesting (and copyrightable) are the specific expressions of that idea, and I'm pretty sure I can come up with differences to top any similarities beyond the ones derived from the resemblance to lions.
Take the gender-based social dimorphism (if I can use the word in such a way). All three races have that, yes. But the Aslans have "Males fight, Females trade", the Kintzi have "Males do everything, Females stay home and breed", and the Hani have "Females do everything, Males stay home and breed". Not so similar after all, I think.
As for the Kintzi, I can't say. It's not a story I've read, and I could well believe that they would make a big deal out of concealing it.
Nevertheless, I think it's just as likely that they're both "Samurai in Space" rather than one being influenced by the other. Though that MAY, of course, have happened.
Hans
Ber that as it may, this diverts attention from my main point: That the idea of a lionoid alien race is hardly so unique and original that if more than one author uses it, one of them MUST have gotten it from the other. I wouldn't be surprised if there are examples of lionoid races that predate the Kintzi (aren't they more tigery, BTW?), altough I can't think of one. But I know for sure that there are earlier felinoid races (Cordwainer Smith), and if you reduce the idea to its basic element (take an Earth animal and make your alien race sort of resemble it), well...
The Hani may very well be a nod to the Aslan and/or the Kintzi, but I think you need the word of the author to prove it.
Ideas are cheap. What's interesting (and copyrightable) are the specific expressions of that idea, and I'm pretty sure I can come up with differences to top any similarities beyond the ones derived from the resemblance to lions.
Take the gender-based social dimorphism (if I can use the word in such a way). All three races have that, yes. But the Aslans have "Males fight, Females trade", the Kintzi have "Males do everything, Females stay home and breed", and the Hani have "Females do everything, Males stay home and breed". Not so similar after all, I think.
Of all the similarities I'd expected people to bring forth, this isn't one of them. I didn't even realize that the Hani got the stardrive from the Mahendo'sat. Not that I doubt you, but it's not something the plot makes a big deal of, is it? Do the Hani deny it or try to hide it?
As for the Kintzi, I can't say. It's not a story I've read, and I could well believe that they would make a big deal out of concealing it.
What about the influence the Aslans had on the Klingons or vice versa? IMO those two races are much closer to each other that any two of the Aslan, Hani, and Kintzi are. Shave an Aslan and you have a Klingon; glue whiskers on a Klingon and you have an Aslan. The biggest difference is their government, but on the personal level, they're both equally obsessed with the outer form of honor and equally willing to engage in situational ethics.
Nevertheless, I think it's just as likely that they're both "Samurai in Space" rather than one being influenced by the other. Though that MAY, of course, have happened.
IMO the operative words are "may have".
You mean the Hani didn't copy the stardive from a Mahendo'Sat scoutship that crashed on the Hani homeworld?
Hans
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Speaking of which, I seem to recall a Dominic Flandry (Poul Anderson - one my favorites) story involving Tigeries from about the mid-60's.
Or am I mis-remembering?
Gadrin,
A Terran navy survey ship, the Pathfinder, misjumped into the Aslan home system right on the eve of what would have been their Third World War. (It's also explicity mentioned that, seeing as their Second World War was more nuclear than our's, their Third World War would have most likely been the Aslan's Last World War.)
The Pathfinder manages to land on the Aslan home world and does the usual "meet & greet" stuff. After that, the story gets rather murky. Two of the most powerful clans - who had also been on opposite sides of the looming war - forge a truce with each other. Nearly everyone else follows suit and - SURPRISE! - the Aslan launch their first jump-capable ship a few years later.
Naturally, the humans aboard Pathfinder are never heard from again.
The next few decades are quite busy for the Samurai Pizza Cats. Jump drive gets disseminated through out the many clans, most likely passed down by patrons to vassals. The current Aslan "honor" code is established and the "Cutural Purges" begin. Everyone who doesn't agree with the new "honor" code has the choice to either be 1) butchered out of hand down to the last kit, B) flee into space hoping to find a new home far enough away from the new Heirate, or iii) keep very, very, very quiet.
With the malcontents handled and jump drive technology passed around, the Aslan begin expanding like something that is usually found under a microscope. Here they catch their second lucky break. The Long Night has fallen across human space and the fragmented human polities the Alslan contact are either easily conquered, bypassed, or held at bay.
By the time a human polity that can kick some Toon ass arises, i.e. the Third Imperium, the Samurai Pizza Cats have established themselves widely enough as to make eradication impossible.
The upshot of all this? It puts paid the the ur-Vilani doctrine of Major and Minor races. You allegedly have to independently develop jump drive to be a Major. What you really have to be to be a Major is what you've always had to be to be a Major; Too Big To Get Your Ass Kicked By Anybody.
And that's the Pathfinder story.
Regards,
Bill
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Agree the pathfinder bit quite. Only recently got the alien modules, interesting stuff in them. For me rather than focusing on the "catness" or "dogness", it's more been about their ecological niche. Aslan are carnivore pouncers. More females than males. These things we look like food to them. The males fight (hunt). You'll be happy to be met by a female, though they'd eat you too! The whole family/pride/clan stuff, it's apportionment of hunting grounds/food, to my mind. Worst case you could just make them like the movie "predator"s, wouldn't be far off. The females run the corporations. An Aslan corporation is often a military unit, The females aren't passive mewling things, they in essence scout out prey for the males to attack. Humans are prey... Makes commerce, trading, privateering, wars of assasin's so much more dangerous. A trade with Aslans could VERY well be looked on as payoff to the female to have her pack of riled up males go after something else rather than you. It's mentioned humans are "acculturated" and able to function in Aslan space, likewise Aslans can function in Imperial space. Specifically they often control their own territory. the whole duel stuff i see as not just being some challenge/status thing, but more like who gets first dibs on the meal. Being accomodating to a male Aslan would more likely get you eaten than anything else lol. Standing up for youself and besting it in a fight, you've established you aren't prey. And they have guns!!! An intelligent carnivore pouncer that outweighs you like double, armed. travels in groups, yow! The division of the skills is rather complex really, where they can't (or don't even bother) to identify the sex of who they're dealing with, it's literally sex classified. That there are 3x as many females, and they do the Purser stuff, odds are you'd be meeting and dealing with them (maybe they're out to hire some privateers for a move on an opposing clan to get some of their hunting grounds?). It would be a big deal to see a male Aslan I'd think, you'd need to be sounded out by the females, maybe in an arranged hunt or something (are you the prey? lol) All that stuff about them being touchy and dueling, this is like having an untamed Tiger at large. If you don't like the way they behave egads, they have ships, fighters, and nuclear missiles! Imagine the protocols for negotiating entry rights when they are so territorial, even to the extent of entry to a ship, or going "out" for the night. Maybe they like to get a local beast of burden and dismember it in a pack right off when they first make groundfall?
So my short take on it all.
So my short take on it all.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Ummm... a space between lines every so often please?
I'm actually out of breath from reading that post
To get back to the original question, why do they need to be defelinized? Do your players know the story of the ancients who thousands of years ago showed up on earth and grabbed a bunch of things they found interesting. One group of interesting became the Vilani and another became the Zhodani, there is no reason they couldn't have grabbed something feline or canine back then, uplifted it, and then dropped it on a random world when it bored them.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
They did grab something canine... every version of Traveller says the Vargr are genetically-modified Terran canines transplanted at the same time as the Vilani & Zhodani.
They all also state the Aslan are NOT related in any way to Terran felines... they are an independently-evolved species native to Kusyu (Kilrai' 0406).
They all also state the Aslan are NOT related in any way to Terran felines... they are an independently-evolved species native to Kusyu (Kilrai' 0406).
Lemurs...
I am watching this thing on tv about Madagascar and lemurs, maybe the Aslan are more like lemurs than felines? Just a thought...
I am watching this thing on tv about Madagascar and lemurs, maybe the Aslan are more like lemurs than felines? Just a thought...
You have it right....it's from Ensign Flandry.
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