Damage Types Again

[David Johansen]

I was writing a summary of T5's basic rules on rpgnet when an odd notion struck me.

Penetrate damage might be the only damage type that is cumulative against armor with other damage types.

Bearing in mind that H1 damage is all cumulative as per gunmaker but npcs require a flat 10 points to kill and thus need more damage to get through the armor than pcs do to kill them.

I haven't had a chance to go over the break down on it but it's pretty clean and clear that way.

Any thoughts, other than the inevitable, we'll never know until Marc tells us?

 

[robject]

That's an interesting take. I'll think about that.

 

[David Johansen]

On a related note in BladeMaker (pp260) I'm pretty sure Pen = C1 is in points rather than dice. It's hard to believe a an average person (C1 = 7) with a great big knife has better penetration than a plasma weapon.

 

[Supplement Four]

The point in the OP has been brought up before. The thinking (can't find the thread, now) is that PEN damage is rolled first, and if it penetrates armor, all other types behind it do not have to penetrate since the armor is now useless.

If PEN damage doesn't penetrate, then the armor can still be penetrated by the other types of damage that follow.


EDIT: I"m sure Marc has an answer on how PEN is supposed to work, right?

 

[David Johansen]

EDIT: I"m sure Marc has an answer on how PEN is supposed to work, right?

I've got a sneaking suspicion that he doesn't and that's part of the hold up. The required clarifications on combat actually seem pretty short and minimal to me and yet we haven't heard a peep in a year.

The difference here is that the pen is added to the other appropriate damage types. So Bullet - 4, Penetrate - 2 would be 6 dice before armor. And possibly Bullet - 2, Frag - 2, Penetrate - 2, would be two sets of four dice rolls.

It would match up with the armor values better. The problem with the "roll pen first" theory is that pen is almost never comparable to the armor levels. None of the damage types are.

If the damage types aren't cumulative somehow war is pretty bloodless in the T5 universe.

Another possiblility is that pen reduces armor by a number of points each time it hits. Which would make eventual kills possible but seems like more detail and book keeping than the combat system is aiming for.

 

[Supplement Four]

Another question would be, if damage is applied separately, then what order is used? Because or can matter.

If you've got Blast-2 and Bullet-4 damage, that's a lot less lethal than Bullet-4 and Blast-2 damage (because the Bullet damage has a much better chance of defeating armor).

 

[Supplement Four]

I've got a sneaking suspicion that he doesn't and that's part of the hold up. The required clarifications on combat actually seem pretty short and minimal to me and yet we haven't heard a peep in a year.

If that's truly the case, then that's a real sad state of affairs to release a book at that price with so many issues and not even have the answers.

If I found out that were true, that would burn me up. I'd be pretty upset with Marc over it. I'd feel like he took advantage of me and all the other Traveller fans.

 

[David Johansen]

I don't know, he's pretty old and health issues can really screw with cognition, not just in terms of dementia but just the medication they put you on for specific issues can really mess up your head. Heck, at any age depression could put a person's brain right out of action for a year or more, no problem.

Just to contrast, I wonder what people would have paid to see a final word on D&D from Gary Gygax before he died and how understanding people would have been if it was imperfect.

I'm not saying Marc's dying. I have no idea what's going on. But when it comes to combat, it seems to me there's a very short list of questions with pretty straightforward answers that we've been waiting over a year for.

How long does it take to write a paragraph or two of clarification?

 

[Supplement Four]

How long does it take to write a paragraph or two of clarification?

I completely agree. Marc, or a representative in the know, should be hosting a thread and answering questions from people who paid good money to play his game.

 

[David Johansen]

Don said at one point that there would be a comprehensive answer for combat but it wouldn't come piecemeal.

I'm not sure how comprehensive it would need to be. As I've said before, a proper discussion of damage types and a cavet to the snap fire rule would probably cover it.

My shot at it would look like this:

Snap Fire
A single shot weapon can, of course, be fired on the move, but suffers an increased penalty to hit and obtains no damage bonus. Also, autofire hits result in dice of dice, with each hit becoming a dice of damage.

Damage Types
Most damage must penetrate armor individually and similtaneously, but all damage types are cumulative against NPCs in the Hit 1 system. (which should really, really be renamed Hit 10 when you think about it)

Penetration is cumulative with Bullet, Impact, Burn, and Blast Damage but not Frag.

Frag and Blast damage affect all combatants in the same range band as the target.

Bullet and Frag damage cause Bleeding by severity just like Cuts.

See, I think it doesn't take that much to make it work. Adding it into the text would take a bit more work but it shouldn't take a year, barring really serious and debilitating health issues for a whole year.

Melee
A combatant can run and make a melee attack at the cost of defending. A combatant can walk and melee normally. Melee attacks are opposed rolls but Melee Weapon skill levels must be divided between multiple attackers when defending. It is possible to attack multiple foes by dividing melee weapon skill between them and increasing the difficulty by one die.

All melee weapons have a fixed Penetrate value equal to the attacker's C1 (because a really big knife does more damage than a sword right now) or a direct damage bonus equal to C1 in cases where the weapon is unbalanced such as an axe. Higher tech materials also grant a penetrate value.

 

[whulorigan]

Don said at one point that there would be a comprehensive answer for combat but it wouldn't come piecemeal.

I'm not sure how comprehensive it would need to be. As I've said before, a proper discussion of damage types and a cavet to the snap fire rule would probably cover it.

My shot at it would look like this:

Snap Fire
A single shot weapon can, of course, be fired on the move, but suffers an increased penalty to hit and obtains no damage bonus. Also, autofire hits result in dice of dice, with each hit becoming a dice of damage.

Damage Types
Most damage must penetrate armor individually and similtaneously, but all damage types are cumulative against NPCs in the Hit 1 system. (which should really, really be renamed Hit 10 when you think about it)

Penetration is cumulative with Bullet, Impact, Burn, and Blast Damage but not Frag.

Frag and Blast damage affect all combatants in the same range band as the target.

Bullet and Frag damage cause Bleeding by severity just like Cuts.

See, I think it doesn't take that much to make it work. Adding it into the text would take a bit more work but it shouldn't take a year, barring really serious and debilitating health issues for a whole year.

Melee
A combatant can run and make a melee attack at the cost of defending. A combatant can walk and melee normally. Melee attacks are opposed rolls but Melee Weapon skill levels must be divided between multiple attackers when defending. It is possible to attack multiple foes by dividing melee weapon skill between them and increasing the difficulty by one die.

All melee weapons have a fixed Penetrate value equal to the attacker's C1 (because a really big knife does more damage than a sword right now) or a direct damage bonus equal to C1 in cases where the weapon is unbalanced such as an axe. Higher tech materials also grant a penetrate value.

This is a fairly concise treatment of the subject. Why don't you post it on the T5 Errata Discussion Thread?