Cutlass for the Marines

[Supplement Four]

I dig the boarding option just because it's cool, swashbuckling action.

It seems to fit, in my mind, with the feudal system. I could see troops in the Dune universe carrying them. Or, maybe in Honor Harrington's universe.

It's a touch of Space Opera.

 

[salochin999]

I dig the boarding option just because it's cool, swashbuckling action.

It seems to fit, in my mind, with the feudal system. I could see troops in the Dune universe carrying them. Or, maybe in Honor Harrington's universe.

It's a touch of Space Opera.

True, I like that kind of thing usually. I guess it boils down to how you picture the setting. I tend to picture the Traveller setting like "Outland" or "Alien" but there's no reason it couldn't be more Space Opera like.

 

[Supplement Four]

True, I like that kind of thing usually. I guess it boils down to how you picture the setting. I tend to picture the Traveller setting like "Outland" or "Alien" but there's no reason it couldn't be more Space Opera like.

I have used those same movies to describe how I traditionally view the Traveller setting, too. So, I see your point.

Lately, I've been wondering if I've been downplaying the feudal system too much. I think I have. Like in Star Wars, the system seems to be just an after thought--a "soft" feudal system as in just another government type. Not what I'd called a "hard" feudal system, like that from the Middle Ages or as what we see in Dune.

I think next time I run a Traveller game, I'll make the feudal system more invasive.

 

[Ulsyus]

Talking about a feudal system and cutlasses, I've often wondered whether dueling was done by nobles using long blades (cutlasses, sabres, foils, rapiers) or with short blades. It hasn't come up much before now as my group hasn't played many nobles before the current clutch of PCs. What do they use in your games?

 

[rancke]

Lately, I've been wondering if I've been downplaying the feudal system too much. I think I have. Like in Star Wars, the system seems to be just an after thought--a "soft" feudal system as in just another government type. Not what I'd called a "hard" feudal system, like that from the Middle Ages or as what we see in Dune.

Well, as described, the feudal nature of the Imperium is limited to the relationship between the Emperor and his dukes, so at the levels PCs usually operate on, the feudal system is not so much soft as non-existent. Comparable to the feudal nature of the British nobility in the Age of Sail, which is to say, none at all.

A pasudo-feudal system akin to the British gentry of the same age -- where the local squire is looked upon as the "lord" of the village whatever formal authority he has or lacks -- might be in existence; there just isn't enough evidence either way to say.

EDIT: When I say, 'as described', I meant 'as described in setting material up until now'.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Well, as described, the feudal nature of the Imperium is limited to the relationship between the Emperor and his dukes, so at the levels PCs usually operate on, the feudal system is not so much soft as non-existent. Comparable to the feudal nature of the British nobility in the Age of Sail, which is to say, none at all.

A pasudo-feudal system akin to the British gentry of the same age -- where the local squire is looked upon as the "lord" of the village whatever formal authority he has or lacks -- might be in existence; there just isn't enough evidence either way to say.


Hans

Knights and Barons of the Archdukes are in a feudal relationship, and vauvasars of the Emperor. Their fiefs are issued by their Archdukes.

 

[rancke]

Knights and Barons of the Archdukes are in a feudal relationship...

No more than Sir Paul McCarthney is in a feudal relationship with Queen Elizabeth.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

No more than Sir Paul McCarthney is in a feudal relationship with Queen Elizabeth.

I think this is more your interpretation of the Traveller universe more than it is the OTU.

 

[rancke]

I think this is more your interpretation of the Traveller universe more than it is the OTU.

Could be. Or just maybe it's the other way around.

My interpretation is based on the complete lack of evidence that knights and baronets receive fiefs (at least as a general rule; I have a vague notion that one or two of the orders of knighthood hand out stuff to their members) and on the way knighthoods are handed out in a way very similar to how the British Empire hands them out. So while I may lack the proof of a clear statement, I do have some evidence to support me, whereas Wil lacks the same sort of proof AND has no evidence to support his interpretation.

EDIT: Note that when I said, 'as described', I meant 'as described in setting material up until now'.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Could be. Or just maybe it's the other way around.

My interpretation is based on the complete lack of evidence that knights and baronets receive fiefs (at least as a general rule; I have a vague notion that one or two of the orders of knighthood hand out stuff to their members) and on the way knighthoods are handed out in a way very similar to how the British Empire hands them out. So while I may lack the proof of a clear statement, I do have some evidence to support me, whereas Wil lacks the same sort of proof AND has no evidence to support his interpretation.


Hans

T5 is quite explicit that they do. T5, p. 52.

 

[Supplement Four]

So while I may lack the proof of a clear statement, I do have some evidence to support me, whereas Wil lacks the same sort of proof AND has no evidence to support his interpretation.

Just to be clear, I wasn't picking sides, even if it sounded (looked) that way.

 

[sabredog]

Talking about a feudal system and cutlasses, I've often wondered whether dueling was done by nobles using long blades (cutlasses, sabres, foils, rapiers) or with short blades. It hasn't come up much before now as my group hasn't played many nobles before the current clutch of PCs. What do they use in your games?

Naturally there's dueling - it thins out the hotheads.

They use either swords or pistols depending on which the participants choose. For swords they use swords or foils, with first blood or to the death, again depending on the severity of the offense and agreement between the seconds.

For pistols the popular item IMTU is the Norge "Duello", a gauss pistol made especially for grass before breakfast. You can see the details here:
http://freelancetraveller.com/magazine/2014-11/index.html

 

[rancke]

T5 is quite explicit that they do. T5, p. 52.

Maybe it does. Since I don't have T5, I can't tell just what p. 52 says to judge if it applies to the Third Imperium setting or is a generic rule. In any case, if T5 says so, then T5 is a retcon. I'm talking about the Third Imperium setting as described in all material up until T5.

Up until now I've carefully added a caveat about T5 every time I've addressed this subject, but I thought that by now you'd seen that often enough to assume it automatically, especially since I was careful to start my post with the words 'as described'. My mistake. I will make sure to include such a caveat in future posts. Meanwhile, I'll amend my original post.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Since Traveller is trying to create a certain 'feel' based upon Classic Space Opera literature, one could also look to the original sources for at least a strong possibility of what Traveller intended ... for both the Cutlass and the Feudalism.

Then you can debate how well or poorly the rules reflect the literature and open a whole new :CoW:

 

[Epee]

Traveller rules cover a lot of ground and appearantly seek to cover settings and campaigns not necessarily tied to the setting of the Third Imperium.

That said; cutlass, or any other form of fencing, can lay a groundwork for hand-to-hand with almost anything other than an empty fist. Footwork, striking distance, parry and reposte, as well as just the confidence to go inside an opponent's strike reach are very necessary to those who make a living fighting within close confines.

Additonally, any military seeking to identify itself with a long-enduring military tradition would probably encourage at least its officer-class to learn such a skill.

 

[sabredog]

That said; cutlass, or any other form of fencing, can lay a groundwork for hand-to-hand with almost anything other than an empty fist. Footwork, striking distance, parry and reposte, as well as just the confidence to go inside an opponent's strike reach are very necessary to those who make a living fighting within close confines.

True, very true. Two Decades of competitive (and a lot of non) fencing have proven their worth again and again in my Palladin Press Officer Safety Moments, and on the range and mats for both gunfighting and hand to hand drills. Strange that it would have such transference, but it did.

 

[sabredog]

Since Traveller is trying to create a certain 'feel' based upon Classic Space Opera literature, one could also look to the original sources for at least a strong possibility of what Traveller intended ... for both the Cutlass and the Feudalism.

Then you can debate how well or poorly the rules reflect the literature and open a whole new :CoW:

This is an important point that is the (IM not-so-HO) center of all things Traveller. Originally the game was a hard scifi space opera game; open-ended and a framework for any kind of universe using that as a genre. It didn't do Star Trek or Star Wars, but it did work for anything from Heinlein to Pournelle and all the Golden Age stuff in between.

I think somewhere along the line people got caught up in all the canon legalism and forgot the flavor and spirit of the game.

 

[rancke]

I think somewhere along the line people got caught up in all the canon legalism and forgot the flavor and spirit of the game.

I think you have completely failed to grasp the motives for wanting a self-consistent game universe.


Hans

 

[sabredog]

Not at all. I understand that people want or need a house universe, and consistency is important to that, but I also understand that not everyone who plays a game plays in the same house universe with all the other people who play the game that way as if they are all sitting in the same room together.

There is no reason why one person's 3I has to be the same exact 3I as another person's, even though they are both running the same 3I. One guy wants Marines to use a cutlass on a boarding action, another thinks that's wrong. Where is the problem with that?

 

[rancke]

Not at all. I understand that people want or need a house universe, and consistency is important to that, but I also understand that not everyone who plays a game plays in the same house universe with all the other people who play the game that way as if they are all sitting in the same room together.

Has anyone expressed the opinion that they should?

There is no reason why one person's 3I has to be the same exact 3I as another person's, even though they are both running the same 3I. One guy wants Marines to use a cutlass on a boarding action, another thinks that's wrong. Where is the problem with that?

None that I can see. Has anyone expressed the opinion that there is one?

Now, if you had been talking about the official setting, our common frame of reference, I could come up with reasons why it mattered, although the example you've chosen seems a bit trivial to me. But then, I have no strong beliefs either way about how plausible cutlasses are for boarding actions.

I do believe that in general there are verisimilitude problems with mutually contradictory statements made about the same game universe. But I've never been under the mistaken belief that your TU is the same as my TU, or that either one is the same as the OTU.


Hans