CT Only: CT & Starfire

[Otto Harkaman]

Fun to think of substituting a different space combat system with CT. Starfire would be fun and simple, just some simple adaptions needed. I wouldn't try to replicate the iconic Traveller starships. I would homebrew in the idea that ships have vector movement from Mayday and that they have a Jump engine which takes up space onboard the ship. No Warp points from Starfire, use the ideas from CT where a ship jumps into a system. Then some merging of how the CT Character skills could effect the Starfire rules.
Thoughts, ideas?

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2891/starfire

 

[Otto Harkaman]

And it would be ole'school, since I hadn't known until someone posted the ancient Starfire rules on Star-Ranger that the original published game was from 1975.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/114062/starfire

 

[aramis]

The original is QUITE different from the '79 version.

Easiest skill system is just to roll 8+ on a relevant skill to gain a +1 for the trun. Pilot to lower turn hode. Engineer to increase speed. Gunner to +1 a weapon. Tactics to +1 the initiative roll. (can you tell I've tried it before?)

 

[Otto Harkaman]

Easiest skill system is just to roll 8+ on a relevant skill to gain a +1 for the trun. Pilot to lower turn hode. Engineer to increase speed. Gunner to +1 a weapon. Tactics to +1 the initiative roll. (can you tell I've tried it before?)

Good ideas Aramis

 

[Otto Harkaman]

The original is QUITE different from the '79 version.

Thanks, I have pdfs of both, haven't compared them, I just assumed.

 

[aramis]

Thanks, I have pdfs of both, haven't compared them, I just assumed.

I've not played original, and it isn't obvious it's the precursor to "1E"... movement works very differently, firing is rather different, no facing... the only real similarity is the damage system and the names of the weapons.

 

[Putraack]

I had a similar idea last year, but I was much more interested in adapting the "Imperial" level of things, so I would have a way of tracking which planets had ships, how much they could afford and construct, and so on. That came of trying to play through Pirates of Drinax, but getting frustrated at having to make up stuff.

Just say 10tons in Traveller is 1 hull point in construction, and off you go!

As a combat system, I know that I still grok the basics, and prefer it as a quickie system to Traveller's.

I have/had the pocket version of Starfire, all 3 books, the mid-80s boxed-set edition, and some of the later Task Force stuff. I bailed out during the early '90s, after playtesting the 4th? edition of the game.

I'm told it's still alive at Starfire Design Studios.

 

[aramis]

Actually, there is a conversion for cargo spaces in Starfire already ...

An outpost - a few dozen people capacity - is 100 cargo holds crated.
Magazines hold 50 missiles in 1 Space. (2E; 3R says 200!)
Let's assume a 1/2 ton missile - that makes a CSP 25 tons, and an Escort from 225 to 300 tons. Whcih puts the 5 space Ex (the smallest possible ship) at 125 tons. Close enough.

Note that 3E uses H=500 and Mg=200 ... noting that 10MGC resources can be transferred in one H, that's GC 20,000 per CSP. It also implies a CSP is about man sized, so, say, 1/2 ton? that's 250 Td per CSP, making the Ex a whopping 1250 tons minumum, and 165 sp SD's up to 42,250 tons.
We also know a crew unit is 2 men in 3rd ed, and a Q holds 50 crew units, so... that argues for 200 tons or 400 tons per space.

If we base it upon average Traveller cargo value, Cr5000/Td, we get 20,000 tons per space, and hit 3 million tons per space... probably not.

Time to pick and choose to get a conversion right for your game.

 

[pendragonman]

I suspect that components are volume scaled differently.

What I mean is that a Cargo is a large open volume but takes the same amount of material to make as, say, an LS? So components might MASS the same but have completely unequal volume. And in Trav, we design by volume.

So the dtons of a ship from Starfire can't easily be converted as one component has a different volume than another.

So an EX sized cargo vessel is of greater dtons than an EX sized scout, or customs boat while they all have the same mass.

This is all based on my observations of Starfire and comparing it to the literary descriptions in the Honorverse. So clearly your mileage may vary,

 

[kilemall]

I'd say straight up 20 dtons per Starfire space, power wrapped up in a percentage per system that is 'off-chart' and degrades along with system hits.

Maybe use (J) engines as a measure of how much J-drive you have, proportionately. That would yield similar results to LBB2 drive/space/hull concepts.

I think Alkelda Dawn used that letter for special warps, I don't precisely recall.

This makes most weapon systems 60 to 100 ton bay weapons, which does quite a bit to keep a similar alignment of size to weaponry.

So a 100=ton scout works out to something like

HX(J)Q(I)

I would turn Aramis' approach on it's head and since a space is 20 dtons, then a Q space is 5 staterooms, or 10 double occupancy or whatever for barracks.

You're throwing away the whole L-Hyd fuel concept I am assuming, so no need to figure out a conversion for that.

Not quite getting the attraction of vector movement for Starfire ships. One of the things that is 'wrong' is the whole size to top speed issue, where the bigger the ship the slower it can go and the more waddly the turn radius.

Since you are talking foregoing Starfire engines, then I would suggest a 'rules change' to entirely ignore hull to speed limits and turn radii.

Finally, the part that has me concerned is the economics.

In general, you are throwing in an entire ecosystem up against each other that was never developed with compatibility in mind.

Traveller ships in particular do not function in an economic vacuum, there are rates and profits and costs to consider, and even for 'national actors' in both games there is ultimately taxation revenue limiting ship/fleet design.

Assuming one is not throwing over the whole Traveller ecosystem moreso then the L-Hyd economics, then the ships need to have a similar or slightly higher capital cost structure.

The easiest thing to do is perhaps do a series of ACS conversions in Starfire, cost them out, then apply a standard multiplier against them to bring them within a few million credits of the original Traveller costs.

I think just from quick lookups that might be divide by 3, but it greatly depends on which edition you are using.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

Oh I would just use Starfire for spacecombat. I am not into trying to make everything work with economics etc. I like to keep things simple. My main concern was just having character skills mesh with the Starfire rules. Later today I might try gaming out some scenarios and see what a vector movement might be like.

Morning coffee
:coffeesip:

 

[aramis]

The SF Jdrive is not FTL; it's a variant of the I drive. It's able, however, to trigger the warp effect at a dozen-plus light-seconds, tho', unlike the quarter-second of an I drive.

 

[kilemall]

The SF Jdrive is not FTL; it's a variant of the I drive. It's able, however, to trigger the warp effect at a dozen-plus light-seconds, tho', unlike the quarter-second of an I drive.

That's light seconds from the warp point, to clarify.

Yes I know, but just thinking how to make it still be Traveller, proportionate drive with power subsumed would seem to be appropriate to the CT ship ethos.

I'm not sure you can mount a weapon on an EX hull to match an armed Type S though and still have a jump drive.

 

[whartung]

Bigger ships are slower because bigger ships are slower in Starfire. Starfire rules are based on game play as a guiding light and then the fiction of how it works comes later.

Traveller is simulationist. It just tries to model physics, with gameplay secondary as a goal.

Starfire wants a naval feel, so big ships are slow.

 

[kilemall]

Bigger ships are slower because bigger ships are slower in Starfire. Starfire rules are based on game play as a guiding light and then the fiction of how it works comes later.

Traveller is simulationist. It just tries to model physics, with gameplay secondary as a goal.

Starfire wants a naval feel, so big ships are slow.

Sure, but the OP wants to do his thing, so those rules go if he wants a Traveller inertial/accel thing.

 

[aramis]

Bigger ships are lower-G in TNE, too. Mostly because of running out of radiator space.

 

[kilemall]

Bigger ships are lower-G in TNE, too. Mostly because of running out of radiator space.

Eh?? Heat dispersal/disposal is a thing?

Why not channel it into the reactor chamber for extra burn without expending more energy, or a secondary power generator system?

IMTU generated heat is going to either thermoelectric generators with heat sink properties or a secondary life support power generator.

 

[aramis]

Eh?? Heat dispersal/disposal is a thing?

Why not channel it into the reactor chamber for extra burn without expending more energy, or a secondary power generator system?

IMTU generated heat is going to either thermoelectric generators with heat sink properties or a secondary life support power generator.

Because that's a physical impossibility to accomplish. Go look up the laws of thermodynamics. Here: https://www.boundless.com/chemistry...23/the-three-laws-of-thermodynamics-496-3601/

Then note that taking waste heat and making it do work is decreasing entropy.

 

[kilemall]

Because that's a physical impossibility to accomplish. Go look up the laws of thermodynamics. Here: https://www.boundless.com/chemistry...23/the-three-laws-of-thermodynamics-496-3601/

Then note that taking waste heat and making it do work is decreasing entropy.

You don't need to take it to absolute zero, just use enough to drop it to below damage to ship and personnel and normal life support can handle it.

Several refineries and other industrial plants have thermal cogeneration plants where waste heat is put to use creating power, this is something my dad installed several times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration

 

[mike wightman]

Ever been round the back of a fridge?