Cross Star System Claims

[RainOfSteel]

Approximately 184 mainworlds in the TU have populations greater than 6 but tech levels lower than 6. I feel that, on cursory and not so well thought out inspection, that obvious space travel capability will figure highly in a survey’s determination of TL, and that we can assume that few of these worlds are powers off their own world, even if some have space-travel, it will likely either be lost-tech vessels, vessels acquired from outside sources, or vessels restricted to a very few and controlled by highly specialized guilds.

Now, most of these mainworlds will not have outposts on the other worlds of their star system. However, if nearby mainworld B sees that mainworld A cannot effectively control its star system, they may try to move in . . .

Ok, here’s where my question comes in.

Who controls the rights to unoccupied worlds? Does occupation at time of entering into membership with the Imperium confer rights to that world? Part of it? None of it?

Does squatting on a world or raising families and working on it create rights to that world or part of it?

Do worlds (organizations, individuals) with rights to a world or part of a world have rights to it forever? Do they have to maintain a presence to maintain rights?

A Megacorporation hires a force of nefarious mercenaries, their mission, arrive on a minor world in a nearby star system (mainworld A), murder a local research station crew, and vanish, leaving little or no evidence behind. Weeks or even months later, the standard resupply ship from mainworld A (one of those rare vessels they do have, or maybe a contracted vessel from another star system working for mainworld A due to its lack of vessels) arrives. They find several thousand colonists from mainworld B busy carving out a home for themselves above a resource deposit the megacorporation in question wishes to exploit, though it couldn’t before because the world was occupied by the research station crew, and their deaths remove the obstacle to resource exploitation, and the colonists are a big handwave to divert attention. The colonists protest they have no knowledge of the research station, their deaths, etc., etc. Those on the resupply mission get the happy job of carrying the news back, or whatever else the GM can think of.

I don’t know, but I’d imagine claims and counter-claims of this nature might make up a substantial portion of any ruling noble’s workload. Especially given that the Imperium is 11 centuries old, and that there are, in some cases, millennia of land ownership in some areas well predating the Imperium.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Now, most of these mainworlds will not have outposts on the other worlds of their star system.

Big but here....
There may be another higher tech population on one of those worlds, of another race, of another group of the same race with higher tech.

Yes, you do then have to explain why the mainworld has enough political prominence to overshadow the other world.... but scenarios can well exist where this makes sense.

Who controls the rights to unoccupied worlds? Does occupation at time of entering into membership with the Imperium confer rights to that world? Part of it? None of it?

Want to bet this is adjudicated/negotiated on a case by case basis? It'll be important enough to the locals that they will want to gaurantee sovereignty over their resources (even unharvestable ones) and the Imperium, unless it is in arm-twist mode, will want the new member world. So they aren't likely to try to stake toooo aggressive of a claim. They don't gain anything by adding another insurrection from day 1.

Does squatting on a world or raising families and working on it create rights to that world or part of it?

The Aslan would like to think so.

In Imperial eyes? They probably maintain this is a 'local problem' and the issue of squatters rights may be decided in local courts. Some local courts will acknowledge them (less likely for squatters from outside the system, but possible still) and some will not. As long as it doesn't lead to armed conflict disruptive of trade, the Imperium should probably let well enough alone.

Do worlds (organizations, individuals) with rights to a world or part of a world have rights to it forever? Do they have to maintain a presence to maintain rights?

Well, if you're part of the Imperium you pay taxes to have your territory defended. In doing so, you are asserting sovereignty over it. The Imperium isn't going to want to encourage squatters as they may have different ideas about paying (or not paying) Imperial taxes. But they might just leave it as a local matter most of the time. It might also be a per-treaty thing where the details are layed out in the articles of incorporation (into the Imperium).

A Megacorporation hires a force of nefarious mercenaries, their mission, arrive on a minor world in a nearby star system (mainworld A), murder a local research station crew, and vanish, leaving little or no evidence behind. Weeks or even months later, the standard resupply ship from mainworld A (one of those rare vessels they do have, or maybe a contracted vessel from another star system working for mainworld A due to its lack of vessels) arrives. They find several thousand colonists from mainworld B busy carving out a home for themselves above a resource deposit the megacorporation in question wishes to exploit, though it couldn’t before because the world was occupied by the research station crew, and their deaths remove the obstacle to resource exploitation, and the colonists are a big handwave to divert attention. The colonists protest they have no knowledge of the research station, their deaths, etc., etc. Those on the resupply mission get the happy job of carrying the news back, or whatever else the GM can think of.

I don’t know, but I’d imagine claims and counter-claims of this nature might make up a substantial portion of any ruling noble’s workload. Especially given that the Imperium is 11 centuries old, and that there are, in some cases, millennia of land ownership in some areas well predating the Imperium.

Yes, land claims and diplomatic issues will be a lot of any Imperial Nobles daylight occupation.

I'd figure in the case mentioned, IMoJ or the like might look into the murders. If they could link it back to the Corp (hmmm... who had motive.... did the Mercs blab...???) then all of a sudden the Corp is in real hot water (esp if it was an Imperial Research Station... the Imperials would probably bust a cap in someone for that). If the mercs did it clean, the Corp would probably get away with it.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I'd never considered this before, but IMHO the simplest solution would be for the mainworld to be granted ownership of their whole system (ie their territorial space to extend out to the heliopause).

Of course, if they're smart (and have good lawyers) they'll rent out the worlds they're not using and live off the profits...

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
I'd never considered this before, but IMHO the simplest solution would be for the mainworld to be granted ownership of their whole system (ie their territorial space to extend out to the heliopause).

Of course, if they're smart (and have good lawyers) they'll rent out the worlds they're not using and live off the profits...

Agree but that might get thorny if there is
1) another sentient life form already on the other planet
2) squatters already in place (effectively a second world)

Then the Empire might not be keen to just grant blanket ownership to one planet.

 

[RainOfSteel]

I do not make the claim that every one of the 184 Imperial worlds I located under the specs I noted was incapable of controlling its star system. Just that I found it unlikely, and that the specs pointed away from that possibility. I still believe that a majority of them wouldn’t be able to mount voyages around their star system, much less control them in even a lose fashion.


So, it looks like prevailing opinion is that star system land rights for non-mainworlds (uninhabited) go to the mainworld in that star system, or at the least, whichever world was admitted to Imperial Membership. Rights and rentals being made out to others wishing to use those worlds. Hmm, I wonder what happens in cases where there are two worlds with substantial TLs and Pops, both competing against each other during admission. Unless the Imperium wanted to crush one or the other, some compromise about rights allocation between the two would have to be done.


However, as far as violations go, here’s a possible example. Mainworld A is, say, Pop 7 and TL 5. Mainworld B is Pop A and TL 14 (one of the heavy hitter worlds, what I’ve seen referred to on many occasions as “one of the 400 pound gorillas” of the Imperium. Now, Mainworld B spots a X-300000-0 moon orbiting a high orbit gas giant in Mainworld A’s star system. Covert scouts report back Zuchai crystal desposits. Mainworld B deposits colonists and miners and the kitchen sink on this moon. Mainworld A discovers these activities a few months (or possibly a few years) later. Unable to send naval forces, they appeal to the Imperium. Mainworld B says to the Subsector Count “Well, we’ve always been such good Imperial Citizens, and our tax base is pretty big and important, and will get bigger with a Zuchai crystal mine going . . . it’ll make your tax revenue collection numbers look great . . . oh puh-leeaze decide in our favor.” Meanwhile, Mainworld A is looking around for a Tramp Freighter who will ferry their representative to the local Subsector Capital, which, oh by the way, is Mainworld B. Mainworld A will have it’s own ruling noble to fight it out for them in the Imperial interests arena, but so does Mainworld B, and I don’t think it’s a tough guess as to which Baron has more influence with the Subsector Count. Of course, I’ve stacked the deck by making Mainworld B the Subsector Capital, but with that higher political status, I feel the rulers of the world would be *more* likely, not less, to commit land-rights violations.


Pressure for natural resource exploitation (even given the presence of nanotech) is going to be heavy for high populations worlds. I see many rights violations possible all over the Imperium.

 

[kaladorn]

Well, in your example, Mainworld B is playing with many assets.... Money, political power, population and tech. B has.... maybe law? Hmmm. We know which wins unless an IMoJ investigation or the like forces the Subsector Powers-That-Be to do the right thing.

Instead of recruiting a tramp freighter, the offended lower tech world may be promising local mineral rights to MegaCorps if they'll bring in some Mercs and sort the 'outworlders' out. It means paying someone off, but it does maybe mean taking back control of your destiny.

And a fun scenario.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Well, in your example, Mainworld B is playing with many assets.... Money, political power, population and tech. B has.... maybe law? Hmmm. We know which wins unless an IMoJ investigation or the like forces the Subsector Powers-That-Be to do the right thing.

Instead of recruiting a tramp freighter, the offended lower tech world may be promising local mineral rights to MegaCorps if they'll bring in some Mercs and sort the 'outworlders' out. It means paying someone off, but it does maybe mean taking back control of your destiny.

And a fun scenario.

. . . Luring in Megacorps with the smell of profit, hmmm, that's delicious. It would probably be highly effective, as Megacorps can bring even greater influence to bear than a high pop world. Of course, it's like inviting an evil "Dark Lord" into your life on a permanent basis (or deeper into your life, since in the Imperium, Megacorps are almost everywhere; or at least they are IMTU). Oh, did that make me seem like I was preseting Megacorps with a bad image? Oops.

 

[jatay3]

Actually this is probably what a lot of the Merc type skirmishes are about. The empire wouldn't normally care, "boys will be boys" and all that. These quarrels wouldn't be important enough to bother with unless they look like spreading, in which case the Imperium will quash them. Of course they could always appeal to the Imperium for mediation-but then thats asking people to be sensible; we couldn't demand that. After all what good are worthless chunks of rock if not to fight over?

 

[Andrew Boulton]

However, as far as violations go, here’s a possible example.

In a case like that, the 400lb gorilla wins!

Although, in the long run, world A might not do too bad. They might end up being a colony or protectorate of B.