Cost of hiring mercs

[BetterThanLife]

Remember if the employer is supplying ammo, then you will probably be using his weapons. After all he isn't going to set up a seperate manufacturing or supply line just to support you. So you would be using the same weapons that his regular forces are using. Most systems with high-tech, stable govenrments are not going to need Mercs, especially if they are mid pop or higher. They will, in general, have a better equipped Army than most Mercenary Units can afford. (There will of course always be exceptions, like plausible deniability, expendable assets, etc.)

One aspect of this is that he may be equipping you with different weapons than your unit is trained with or used to. (Assault Rifles or Carbines vs. ACRs or Causs Rifles.)

When equipping a Merc Unit, it is generally advisable to equip it to TL10-12 level. TL13+ makes resupply and maintenance spares much more difficult. While it might be fun to equip to TL15 or even 14, where would you get the spare parts? Which is one of the reasons that the Marines IMTU are so nasty. Virtually unlimited resources at TL14-TL15 depending on the era played. Even the MORA or GLISTEN Armies have limited resources, by comparison.

 

[kaladorn]

Not necessarily, Bhoins. The Imperium has standardized design packages for a lot of things, so ammunition may well be very standardized. So you may well *not* be using his weapons if you aren't on a low-trade backwater.

And the assumption about not setting up a separate manufacturing system depends on what kind of manufacturing tech he has. If he's got JIT manufacturing, it may be quite easy for him to setup a run particularly for you.

Now, sure, if you're on a TL-7 backwater with low trade and your kit is TL-12 weaponry, you're not getting local ammo supply. But if you are coming in to a TL-12 world that just doesn't have a huge military or are being underwritten by a TL-12 source off planet, you may well get standard ammo supplied. And it may be that some places have very little military, but good high tech fabrication systems which can easily churn out ammo given a basic spec.

If you are being locally equipped, MT has some TL difference rules that would come into play for assessing skill levels with off-tech (relative to your normal) kit.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Not necessarily, Bhoins. The Imperium has standardized design packages for a lot of things, so ammunition may well be very standardized. So you may well *not* be using his weapons if you aren't on a low-trade backwater.

And the assumption about not setting up a separate manufacturing system depends on what kind of manufacturing tech he has. If he's got JIT manufacturing, it may be quite easy for him to setup a run particularly for you.

Now, sure, if you're on a TL-7 backwater with low trade and your kit is TL-12 weaponry, you're not getting local ammo supply. But if you are coming in to a TL-12 world that just doesn't have a huge military or are being underwritten by a TL-12 source off planet, you may well get standard ammo supplied. And it may be that some places have very little military, but good high tech fabrication systems which can easily churn out ammo given a basic spec.

If you are being locally equipped, MT has some TL difference rules that would come into play for assessing skill levels with off-tech (relative to your normal) kit.

THis may be the case, but if they have Gauss Rifles and I have ACRs, or vice versa then there is a problem. And even if we both use ACRs, there will still be local variation. When dealing with weapon tolerances, close enough doesn't cut it. LIke was mentioned earlier, I don't want ammo that works 90-95% of the time. Or that is 99% compatible. For game purposes the AK-47, the AKM and the AK-74 are the same weapon. Matter of fact so is the M-16, the Galil and the Valmet. Now the same ammo can't be used in the AK-47 as in the AK-74. even though the M-16, the Galil and the Valmet are all the same caliber, they can't interchange magazines.

Now the M-16A1 looks like the M-16A2. Many of the parts are interchangable. They are both 5.56mmx 45mm rounds. However the rounds designed for the M16A1 are less accurate when fired through the M16A2, and the M16A2 rounds are dangerous in an M16A1.

I want ammo designed for my weapon, not "good enough" to meet the spec of that weapon. It isn't the same thing. Granted if both the planet and I are using the same weapon then I can probably trust their ammo supply, but different weapons, less likely.

 

[kaladorn]

I don't know how up to date you are on modern machining and fabrication. We're TL-8 or TL-9 and you can now give a fabrication unit a computer disk with specs and it can reliably (nearly 100%) turn out very accurate units according to that computerized spec. This is NO DIFFERENT than how you'd make it at home on your world if you were a Merc. And the standardization of IDPs means that *everyone* in the Imperial Forces is using the same size of 4mm gauss needles packaged the same way in the same magazine.

So what I'm saying is if you are using one of the very standard ammo types, it is quite likely you'll be able to get *reliable* ammunition this way. Also, if high tech (TL-A+ let us say) fabricators are available, you will have *no problem* getting Four Nines worth of ammo (99.99% usable).

The ammo *IS* designed for your weapon because you provide them with the specs!

Your logic assumes an older (TL-7 or lower, or early TL-8) style of manufacturing and doesn't account for Imperial cross-the-board standardization.

If I'm in Gushmenge, and my MarDiv gets activated to go help fight a fire in Corridor, I can't *afford* to retool once I get there. I want to (need to) be able to use local facilities. So the Imperium *has* to inflict some standardization. Less so for the Army that tends to deploy in larger self-contained units (with its own supply chains) than for the Marines, who have to move fast and act as fire brigades. Sure, the Marines will take a lot of ammo with them, but they absolutely need to be able to resupply from standard Imperial Depots.

This standardization of the Imperium would bleed out into the civilian sector. I don't doubt there are many civilian weapons (semi-auto) that use standard Imperial design magazines from gauss rifles, ACRs, pistols of various sorts, etc.

And as I say, even were you not using Imperial Standard, your armourer simply provides a holocrystal full of engineering specs to the local machine shop, they feed it to their high tech fabricator, and you *have* reliable ammunition. Worst case, a single test run reveals any imperfections.

Manufacturing and quality control in the high tech world is not much like what we had 20 or 50 years ago. We don't *bother* to apply that sort of control to a lot of manufacturing processes. But that has to do with economics, not capability. It also speaks to requirements.

I think you are vastly under-rating high tech manufacturing. (IMO... but I work in high tech and have had some close run ins with this gear and SPC checks on quality - something a lot of US companies are still trying to get down as well as the Japanese have...).

 

[Admiral Morgan]

http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/paytable2005-rev1.pdf


this could give you an idea of what to pay the mercs your hireing.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Kaladorn,
YOU have a vaild point at TL9+ Border line 8+. However, with the notable exception of EA-7, I have a problem with a TLD world which is supposed to be the general sustainable Tech Level, having armies equipped to TLA or so. virtually all the published Mercenary Tickets are on worlds that are <TL9. The ACR is TLA the Gauss Rifle is TLC, my personal favorite Mercenary smallarms. And I believe I am not alone in this. So therefore unless the world the Ticket is on is of a Tech level sufficient to produce the weapons I would be highly suspect of any ammunition they produced for a weapon they don't have the tech base to build.

I just realized we were looking at the situation from different perspectives. I hope that clears up the direction I was looking at it from, not just tolerances but actual technological capability.

 

[Admiral Morgan]

Bhoins, to build a Gauss Rifle is TLC and an ACR is TLA correct that is to build the weapon. Ammuntion is another story. a Gauss Rifle fires a 4mm solid slug wich could be reliably reproduced on a TL5 world. While the world wouldn't be able to build replacement parts for the weapon or even produce magazines the 4mm round could be reliably reproduced for the weapon.

For the ACR it would depend on if the rifle used cased or caseless rounds to what TL they could be reliably reproduced at.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Admiral Morgan:
Bhoins, to build a Gauss Rifle is TLC and an ACR is TLA correct that is to build the weapon. Ammuntion is another story. a Gauss Rifle fires a 4mm solid slug wich could be reliably reproduced on a TL5 world. While the world wouldn't be able to build replacement parts for the weapon or even produce magazines the 4mm round could be reliably reproduced for the weapon.

For the ACR it would depend on if the rifle used cased or caseless rounds to what TL they could be reliably reproduced at.

Actually the Gauss Rifle round is supposed to be a 4mm 4 gram needle that can travel at 1500m/s, consisting of a dense armor core sournded by a softer metal covering ending in a hollow point. Providing both good armor penetration and high stopping power. Further the round is sent down the barrell by a magnetic field. For that kind of performance, the dense armor piercing core and a hollow point, plus be a magnetic alloy, that is some pretty fancy metalurgy and machining tolerences. If it was simply a steel needle then I would agree, but it is more than that. (And how you get armor penetration and then stopping power with this combination is beyond me and I have a fairly decent understanding of ballistics.

)

Further the Gauss Rifle ammo comes preloaded in the magazine which includes the batterypack and is disposable. (Meaning, to me at least, that the magazines were not really designed to be reloaded, unless you were also replacing the powerpack.)

So manufacturing the ammo is a bit more of a technological problem than you may think.

For the ACR, manufacturing solid slug ammo locally at a lower TL, sure, (Caseless may be another problem but LBB4 doesn't specify if it is caseless or not.) but APDS or HE rounds in a 9mm round? Definitely higher TLs.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Kaladorn,
So therefore unless the world the Ticket is on is of a Tech level sufficient to produce the weapons I would be highly suspect of any ammunition they produced for a weapon they don't have the tech base to build.

Oh, on this I'll agree with you. But if they've ordered it from a nearby world with high tech capabilities, it may be fine. Similarly, one could argue that a gauss needle is a simple shape made of a particular material. Assuming the material is within your TL and the energy capability needed to fire it (if you need an integral battery pack) is, you should be able to make the ammo even if not the weapon. Remember, TLC weapons may represent TLC design (which can't be done on TL9 world), but essentially use materials present on a TL9 world. It may cost more to manufacture them on a TL9 world (relatively speaking). It may be that they could never 'design' this on their own. But given the design, they *may* be able to manufacture it.

But I take your points, and am in aggreement - if the world can't produce some item, then getting parts for that item requires a lot more work and a lot more careful verification that the product really is equivalent.

 

[Admiral Morgan]

Originally posted by Bhoins:

Actually the Gauss Rifle round is supposed to be a 4mm 4 gram needle that can travel at 1500m/s, consisting of a dense armor core sournded by a softer metal covering ending in a hollow point. Providing both good armor penetration and high stopping power. Further the round is sent down the barrell by a magnetic field. For that kind of performance, the dense armor piercing core and a hollow point, plus be a magnetic alloy, that is some pretty fancy metalurgy and machining tolerences. If it was simply a steel needle then I would agree, but it is more than that. (And how you get armor penetration and then stopping power with this combination is beyond me and I have a fairly decent understanding of ballistics.

)


I can tell you how it get's its armor piercing properties through shere kinetic energy. The same way in wich straw can be diven into concrete cinder blocks by a tornado. If the volocity is 1500m/s that is equivint to the projectile traveling at 5,400,000 meters per hour or 5,400 KPH.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Admiral Morgan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
(And how you get armor penetration and then stopping power with this combination is beyond me and I have a fairly decent understanding of ballistics.

)

I can tell you how it get's its armor piercing properties through shere kinetic energy. The same way in wich straw can be diven into concrete cinder blocks by a tornado. If the volocity is 1500m/s that is equivint to the projectile traveling at 5,400,000 meters per hour or 5,400 KPH. </font>[/QUOTE]It isn't a question of how you get armor piercing capability, though how you get a bullet that will survive impact with armor plate at that velocity (Especially if it doesn't impact at a 90 degree angle and with a hollow point.) without disintegrating is a nicew piece of metalurgy. The question is how you get both armor piercing capability and stopping power. A bullet travelling at that speed is that is armor piercing is also going to pass right through a body and transfer very little energy to the target. It will make nice small holes, that won't effectively transfer energy so it won't have much in the way of stopping power.

Now if you were only penetrating ballistic cloth type body armor then the way to accomplish both is the original Glaser Safety Slug, which was number 4 shot suspended in liquid teflon. That will penetrate kevlar weave then stop in the body and also stop in the body that isn't wearing armor. However against a steel plate it will impact and transfer energy to the plate but would be unlikely to penetrate.

 

[Piper]

It's not just the tech level, wouldn't the size of the industrial base play a big part in local cost/ability to manufacture hi tech components?
Take the gauss magazine: the needles are TL6 at best, probably lower with imported tools available. The magazine housing is a sheet metal stamping, TL4, or a plastic mold, say TL6. The battery gets dicey; if it's a TL12 recipe that can be duplicated at lower levels, no problem. If it's a hi-tech process, they might have to import the machinery.
The trade and speculation table might help here. Ammunition is discounted on Industrial and Rich worlds and is at a premium on Poor worlds. Maybe allowing manufacture on Industrial and Rich worlds within a certain number of Tech Levels would work as a rule of thumb?
Any reasonable machine shop could probably make these. The snag comes when you need thousands of magazines, especially if you need them quickly. It might take months to set up production at low tech levels and then, is it worth it for 1000 magazines? Maybe modifying the LBB 4 ammo discount rates? No discounts (or possibly a premium)on the first 500, 20% when you buy 1000, etc.

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
It isn't a question of how you get armor piercing capability, though how you get a bullet that will survive impact with armor plate at that velocity (Especially if it doesn't impact at a 90 degree angle and with a hollow point.) without disintegrating is a nicew piece of metalurgy. The question is how you get both armor piercing capability and stopping power. A bullet travelling at that speed is that is armor piercing is also going to pass right through a body and transfer very little energy to the target. It will make nice small holes, that won't effectively transfer energy so it won't have much in the way of stopping power.

Now if you were only penetrating ballistic cloth type body armor then the way to accomplish both is the original Glaser Safety Slug, which was number 4 shot suspended in liquid teflon. That will penetrate kevlar weave then stop in the body and also stop in the body that isn't wearing armor. However against a steel plate it will impact and transfer energy to the plate but would be unlikely to penetrate.

http://www.antitank.co.uk/german1.htm
The PzB39 had similar ballistic qualites to those listed for the Gauss rifle.
I'll admit the hollow point is a bit confusing as I doubt tungsten is going to deform after impacting any reasonable body armor.
If one is using the timeline in LBB 4, the gauss becomes general issue at around the same time as combat armor. Spalling fragments would probably be a large portion of the wound mechanism.
edit :after coffee

)
If the soft sabot has the hollow point and not the needle this begins to make some sense. One of the hazards of posting late at night.

 

[kaladorn]

Corejob should be speaking to this. He has pictures of flechettes which I believe went through armour but then do odd and funky things inside tissue - so they'll slam through the relatively thin armour then tumble in the tissue behind, and with the 10:1 aspect ratio, this makes huge wound channels. That's something like what a gauss rifle needle probably does.

Yes, it may require higher tech to make the battery. Maybe a TL9 gauss rifle magazine ends up weighing an extra 0.5 kg per magazine.

And your point about the industrial quality of the world is well taken Piper.

If you are stuck on a TL9 world with limited supply, you may have to opt for either retooling to local weaponry or else setting up that production line. If not, if you can get your resupply within a couple of weeks from outsystem, then go for it.

A lot depends on situation. I was just bringing this all up for the contention that your only option is to carry all your own ammo or adopt local weapons. There are situations where you could locally acquire (via shipment from offworld or manufacture locally) sufficient resources.

But I'd say this is GM fiat territory and the GM should do what makes the most interesting story

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Yes, it may require higher tech to make the battery. Maybe a TL9 gauss rifle magazine ends up weighing an extra 0.5 kg per magazine.

And your point about the industrial quality of the world is well taken Piper.

If you are stuck on a TL9 world with limited supply, you may have to opt for either retooling to local weaponry or else setting up that production line. If not, if you can get your resupply within a couple of weeks from outsystem, then go for it.

A lot depends on situation. I was just bringing this all up for the contention that your only option is to carry all your own ammo or adopt local weapons. There are situations where you could locally acquire (via shipment from offworld or manufacture locally) sufficient resources.

But I'd say this is GM fiat territory and the GM should do what makes the most interesting story

It's all grist for the imagination mill and as you say, much depends on the situation and the plans the GM has in mind. One could easily spin sub-plots out of trying to establish supply for a merc unit; having to hunt down a source, or detailing personnel to guard the ammo factory.
Conversely, you could choose to ignore it entirely. Ammo is a standard cargo for traders in CT. It's not unreasonable to assume you could find it on almost any world that was hiring mercs, regardless of tech level.

In truth, I'd never really thought about it much until reading this thread but it does raise some interesting questions.

 

[BetterThanLife]

THe whole ammunition and resupply issue is the one reason I recommend that most Merc Units are equipped in the TLA-TLC range. Supply is generally much easier. Anything above 13 generally limits you to resupply on, depending on where you are, around 8 worlds per sector. (More in the Solomani Rim, less outside Ley in the Gateway Domain, etc.) Traditionally military tech is one of the first things to advance. But even if you drop from TLE to TLC your number of resupply points more than doubles (usually you can find a resupply world within 4 jumps with a typical Mercenary Cruiser) and if you are equipped to TLA, in general you can find resupply within 2 jumps. (Though being equipped at too low a Tech Level can also cause loss of tickets, as virtually nobody on a TLB planet is going to hire a TL8 Mercenary unit.)

This general Mercenary Tech Level, and planet TL is the biggest reason that IMTU Imperial Marines are so nasty. They have very deep pockets and are equipped at the bleeding edge of technology. (Generally TLF, though some TLE again depending on era.)

Obviously I have run a Merc campaign or two.

Have to keep things interesting and keep the roleplaying possibilities open.