Cost of a Lab Ship

[Frewfrux]

So, I'm finishing up with a character, and he's ended up with 2 Ship Shares in a Lab Ship. I would like to buy the third, but I can't quite figure out what the base price of the Lab Ship is.

The closest I've found is page 697 where it says a "value 8" thing is worth hundreds of millions of credits, and the example is "starships." I'm sure it's just something I'm missing. Can anyone direct me to the right pages?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So, I'm finishing up with a character, and he's ended up with 2 Ship Shares in a Lab Ship. I would like to buy the third, but I can't quite figure out what the base price of the Lab Ship is.

You're not missing anything. The standard ships are not described any better than on p321.

Based on the rough description it should cost about MCr 50 + the cost of the labs and any specialised sensors, perhaps a total of MCr 100 or so?

 

[robject]

MCr 138 is my estimate, plus or minus. Checking my T5 Ship design archive:

http://traveller5.net/tools/ships/designs/

In particular:

http://traveller5.net/tools/ships/designs/Imperial-ACS-L-DC12-Lab Ship.html


Using a 400-ton TL15 Cluster hull, the laboratory ship is a mobile base for scientific analysis and investigation. It mounts drives for performance of jump-2 and 1-G acceleration. Fuel tankage supports a single jump-2 and five months of operations. Installed on the bridge is a model/2 computer, and a powerful sensor suite.

The unusual hull of the lab ship allows spin-generated centrifugal gravity: to avoid the interference that gravitics might produce on some sensitive experiments.

About half the ship is allocated to laboratory space and sample storage. The ship has four hardpoints, but no weapons are installed. There is one 40-ton pinnace in a vehicle bracket, and two air/rafts stored adjacent to cargo. The ship is an overtonnage design, which would affect it if it were capable of entering an atmosphere (which it isn't). The laboratory ship requires a crew of five: pilot, astrogator, two engineers, and medic, although most are typically mission-oriented researchers as well. Gunners and scientific research personnel may be added. There are twenty staterooms and no low berths. The pilot operates the pinnace; the engineers operate the air/rafts. The ship can carry 20 passengers (35 if double occupancy) on a non-commercial basis.

   Vol  No  Label                            MCr  Notes                         
 -----  --  ------------------------------ -----  ------------------------------
   400      Cluster Hull                       8  C                             
    66      Jump Fuel (2  parsecs)             0  J2, 33t/pc                    
    32      Plant Fuel (5 months)              0  5 months                      
    -2      No Landers                         0                                
     1      Fuel Purifiers 4t/hr               1  4t/hr                         
     0      AV=30. 1 Rad Charged               0                                
     2      Computer Model/2 std               5                                
     0      DS Surf Communicator             3.5                                
     3      DS Ant Neutrino Detector         3.5                                
     3      DS Ant EMS                       3.5                                
     0      DS Surf Grav Sensor              3.5                                
     0      DS Surf Visor                    3.5                                
     0      G Surf Mass Sensor               4.1                                
     0      G Surf Deep Radar                4.1                                
     0      G Surf Densitometer              4.1                                
     0      G Surf Proximeter                4.1                                
    50  25  Crew Single Stateroom            2.5  1 crew                        
    50      Cargo Hold Basic                   0                                
    40      Slow Pinnace                      18                                
     4      Small Craft External Bracket       4                                
     4      Infirmary                          2  treats minor trauma           
     5  10  Crew Shared Fresher                5  4 crew                        
     4   4  Crew Common Fresher                4  10 crew                       
   120      Lab/Conference/Work area           0                                
     8   2  Vehicle Lock                       2                                
     8   2  Air/Raft Enclosed                0.2                                
     3      Life support (120 people/month)    3  120 people/month              
     3      Maneuver Drive-1 (B)               6  1 G                           
  4.29      Adv PowerPlant-2 (D)              13  P 2                           
    10      Adv Jump Drive-2 (D)              30  J 2                           
     7      Standard Controls                  0                                
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   425                              TOTALS   138

 

[Frewfrux]

Oh nice, thanks for that!!!

Just a quick question, it looks like it has 25 staterooms. I'm assuming that's 5 for the crew, and 20 for passengers, right? (Just seems like the description of how many people fit is a little off.)

So, let's see if I have this right. That's 138 MCr for base cost. Looking at the supply and demand table I rolled "Quite Common" for supply (makes sense) and "Ordinary" for demand. That puts the final purchasing cost at 110.4 MCr.

I have 2 of the 3 ship shares I need to own it outright, so I only need to come up with 1/3 the cost...that's 36.8 MCr.

My starting cash is 35,000 Cr. I can sell my vote for 100,000 Cr, and I can sell the first month's passage from my TAS membership for 10,000 Cr. That gives me 145,000 Cr, or 0.45 MCr. Hmmmm. That's not even 20% of the amount I'll need.

Damn those dice! Why only 2 ship shares? WHYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?

How long can I hold onto ship shares? This character has an annual income of 280,000 Cr from fiefs, so I'll have enough for the down-payment next year. I can just do a bit of non-ship adventuring (using my TAS membership - bless those dice) until my account is flush again.

EDIT: Woah, no, 20% of 36.8 is 7.36 MCr. I'm a little ways from that. Sigh.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I used a more budgetminded approach (MCr 56):

A-DC12                         Ergo 0  Comfort -1   Demand -1
                                       220,546672       55,75
System                              #        Dton        Cost
Hull                                          400            
Cluster                                                    10
Polymer   AV=22 ( 1522 vs Heat/Beam, 220 vs Pres, 220 vs Nuke, 110 vs Rad, 110 vs EMP )
Ablat     AV= 0 ( 1500 vs Heat/Beam  )
Armour Ult Anti-Rad                11                          AV=11 (   11 vs H/B, 110 vs Rad,     0 vs EMP )
Armour Ult Anti-EMP                11         5,3              AV=11 (   11 vs H/B,     0 vs Rad, 110 vs EMP )
Landing Skids Tarmac                            0           0
Lifters Installed                                           1
                                                             
External Craft                     40                        
Total Drive Capacity              440                        
                                                             
Jump Bubble                                                 0
Mod J Drive D                       1        12,5        12,5
Mod M Drive B                       1           2           4
Mod P Plant D                       1         6,5         6,5
                                                             
Fuel, Jump                                   79,2            
Fuel, Power                                   7,9            
Purifier                            1           1         0,5
                                                             
Bridge                                                   0,55
    Control Console                 2           3         0,2
    Operating Console               1         1,5        0,05
    Computer m/1/bis/phot           1           1        0,75
                                                             
Other Consoles                                            0,8
    Operating Console               4           6         0,2
    Computer m/0/bis/phot           4           2           1
                                                             
Sensors                                                      
Gen DS Surf Commu-11 +12            1           0         0,5
Gen SR Surf CommP-15 +5             1           0         0,5
Gen DS Surf Radar-12 +12            1           0         0,5
Gen DS Surf Scope-12 +12            1           0         0,5
Gen DS Surf Neutr-13 +12            1           0         0,5
Gen LR Surf Grav -15 +9             1           0         0,5
Gen G Surf Activ-15 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Deep -13 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Densi-14 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Life -14 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Mass -12 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Radia-12 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen Fo Surf Field-15 +4             1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Analy-13 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Proxi-14 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Sound-11 +5              1           0        0,05
Gen G Surf Jamme-12 +5              1           0         0,5
Gen DS Surf Steal-15 +12            1           0         0,5
                                                             
Crew:                      Comfort -1                        
Staterooms                          6          12         0,6
Freshers, Shared                    3         1,5         1,5
Common Areas                     10,5        10,5           0
Passengers:                 Demand -1                        
Mid Stateroom                       4           8         0,4
Freshers, Shared                    2           1           1
Common Areas                        7           7           0
Life Support:                                                
Med Console                         1         0,5         0,5
Auto-counsellor                     1           1         0,2
Clinic                              1           2           1
Life Support, Standard              4           4           4
Escape Capsules                     2           2           2
                                                             
Standard Air Lock                   4           0           0
                                                             
Cargo                                       220,5            
                                                             
Carried Craft                                                
Grapple Pinnace                     1           2           2
                                                             
                                Crew     Consoles    Salaries
Crew                           6                7       22000
Bridge                         3                             
    Pilot                           1           1        6000
    Astrogator                      1           1        5000
    Sensor & EW                     1           1        3000
Engineer                       1                         4000
    Engineer                        1           2            
Service                        2                1        4000
    Medic                           1                        
    Steward                         1                        
Flight                         0                1           0

Only 10 staterooms (dual capable), but over 200 Dt left open for labs.

Generic sensor suit for reliability, better sensors can be added.

Note that Labs can cost MCr 1 per Dt...

Detailed design:

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Damn those dice! Why only 2 ship shares? WHYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?

Just give him the ship on a limited grant. He would have to motivate continued use of the ship from time to time...

 

[robject]

As Dilbert says.

Limitations are plot hooks on steroids.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I know you have been doing this longer than me, but isn't this a bit cramped?
Both for quarters and bridge?

   Vol  No  Label                            MCr  Notes                         
 -----  --  ------------------------------ -----  ------------------------------
    50  25  Crew Single Stateroom            2.5  1 crew                        
     5  10  Crew Shared Fresher                5  4 crew                        
     4   4  Crew Common Fresher                4  10 crew                       

     7      Standard Controls                  0                                
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Frewfrux]

As Dilbert says.

Limitations are plot hooks on steroids.

Yes, well, the Solomani government is arranging for him to acquire the ship. He doesn't know it yet, but they are going to "recruit" him for a Rimward trip to The Great Torbah. Silly prof, he thinks he's headed to the Malorn Union.

So yes, the University will fund the expedition (yeah, it's the University doing it, right). They will own 1/3 of the ship (and 1/3 of any profits that come from it) and pay for the wages of the team that the prof doesn't want. (The University isn't happy that someone is forcing their hand to do this, so they are going to try to set the prof up for failure.)

That's what I've come up with so far....still working on it.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I have 2 of the 3 ship shares I need to own it outright, ...

3 Ship Shares for a Lab Ship does not imply ownership, just access to it.

Loaned Ships. Some ships can be acquired on loan, subject to basic eligibility requirements. The Ship Shares are expended when the loan is made. The loaned ship cannot be sold or mortgaged and is subject to occasional assigned missions by the organizational owner.
Purchased Ships. Virtually any ship (although usually Merchants or Corsairs) can be acquired with Ship Shares: one Share acquires 25 tons of the ship (thus, a 200-ton Free Trader requires 8 Ship Shares to acquire full control).

To own the Lab Ship would require 16 Ship Shares.

 

[Frewfrux]

3 Ship Shares for a Lab Ship does not imply ownership, just access to it.

To own the Lab Ship would require 16 Ship Shares.

I thought that only applied if it wasn't specific to your career. In other words, anyone [who doesn't fit one of the career-based categories] can own a ship at 1 share per 25 tons, but only a noble can own a Yacht at 3 shares.

Though, now that you say that, it did seem rather "cheap" for just 3 shares...even if it was limited to a specific career.

Maybe I should look up the errata on this...

 

[Frewfrux]

Looks like your source wasn't the errata, but the rules. Except, you forgot the line before...

A character can redeem Ship Shares for a ship appropriate to his career experience. Some acquired ships are provided on loan; others are available as purchases.
Eligibility. Ships become available based on a career connection.

And then the bit you quoted.

So, you read that to say that players only have access to use, and not access to acquire (own) the ships that are career-specific?

I don't know. I see what you're saying, but the phrase "redeem Ship Shares for a ship" seems pretty intentional to me. It's not "redeem Ship Shares so you can use a particular ship" or even "redeem Ship Shares for access to a ship."

I see that full paragraph (all two sentences of it) as detailing out three ways to get a ship:

1. "A character can redeem Ship Shares for a ship appropriate to his career experience"
2. "Some acquired ships are provided on loan"
3. "others are available as purchases"

Having said that, I don't disagree about getting a lab ship for 3 ship shares as sounding kinda cheap. Then again, in order to do it my character didn't muster out until he was 48. So, cheap may be a relative term.

 

[Frewfrux]

Then again, I guess you could read it as the first sentence saying that you can get ships with ship shares, and the way you do that is via Loans or Purchases. However, that paragraph is followed by three sections, each denoted by a bold title. Those titles are: Eligibility, Loaned Ships, and Purchased Ships.

So, I think it's meant to say that ex-scouts, ex-scholars, ex-navy officers, and any noble (or someone famous) has a special way to acquire ships that other career just don't have. Is the cost too cheap? Maybe. But it does seem intentional.

 

[Frewfrux]

Looking at the other mustering-out rewards near the "Ship Share" one, there's the TAS Fellow Membership. Let's bump that up and say that it's a TAS Life Membership, that's still only 1 million credits value. If the ship share only needs to be received 3 times to get a ship it does seem a bit out of proportions to the rest of what's offered.

Having said that, the rules also say:

Ship Shares. A ship share represents a fractional ownership in a starship. It may be redeemed upon Mustering Out, or it may be retained and redeemed at some later date.

And that's pretty clearly ownership, not borrowing from a friend by calling in a favor or something.

Perhaps - and this is just me trying to work out these two, seemingly incompatible realities - perhaps the type of ship that one has access to be able to purchase via the use of career contacts is not really the type of ship that would be re-sellable on the general market. Maybe it *is* a Lab Ship that's really only worth 7 or 8 million Credits.

hmmmmmmmm

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You are overthinking it. It is rather straight-forward. You either get a ship on loan for a few shares, or ownership for a lot of shares.

A character can redeem Ship Shares for a ship appropriate to his career experience.
Some acquired ships are provided on loan; others are available as purchases.
Eligibility. Ships become available based on a career connection.
Loaned Ships. Some ships can be acquired on loan, subject to basic eligibility requirements. ...
Purchased Ships. Virtually any ship (...) can be acquired with Ship Shares:
one Share acquires 25 tons of the ship (...). ...

Your character is an Ex-Scholar (I assume), so is eligible for a loan of a Lab Ship for 3 shares. As an alternative he may use his shares towards the ownership of any (reasonable) ship at 25 Dt per share and a mortgage for the rest of the cost.


This what original Traveller said:

Scouts— Service in the Scouts may result in the character receiving a scout ship in reserve status. It is the policy of the Scout service that it will make available surplus scout ships to selected individuals on a reserve basis. In such manner, the vessels are put (hopefully) to good use while they are not required by the service, and are available for recall to duty when needed.
The character is given constructive possession of a scout ship, without actual title to it. He may use it as he sees fit, but may not sell or mortgage the vessel. He is not responsible for payments, except for crew and some upkeep. Fuel is free at scout bases, and maintenance is available free at scout bases at class B starports.

This is the original loaned ship. Note that it comes with strings attached: The ship (and possibly the character) may be recalled to duty (or given assignments).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Ship Shares. A ship share represents a fractional ownership in a starship. It may be redeemed upon Mustering Out, or it may be retained and redeemed at some later date.

And that's pretty clearly ownership, not borrowing from a friend by calling in a favor or something.

Ship shares is supposed to be a mechanism to provide the Travellers with a ship to go adventuring in, not rain vast riches on them.

The main rule is that shares can be pooled, and used to obtain part-ownership of a ship along with a mortgage to keep the Travellers struggling.

As an exception some Careers gives the chance a ship on loan (with strings attached, but no mortgage). But note that getting three shares is very unlikely, so only Scouts have a reasonable chance of getting a ship this way alone.

 

[Frewfrux]

Ship shares is supposed to be a mechanism to provide the Travellers with a ship to go adventuring in, not rain vast riches on them.

The mechanism for vast riches is not acquiring a ship, which will come with vast expenses (I assume - I haven't gotten to that part yet), it's the land grant system. As a result of all the fiefs my character got he will end up with an annual income of 350,000 Cr. And he wasn't even trying for that.

The main rule is that shares can be pooled, and used to obtain part-ownership of a ship along with a mortgage to keep the Travellers struggling.

I would love to see the rules for how to get a mortgage when the down payment required is measure in MCr's - money PC's just don't start with. Is there something I'm missing?

As an exception some Careers gives the chance a ship on loan (with strings attached, but no mortgage). But note that getting three shares is very unlikely, so only Scouts have a reasonable chance of getting a ship this way alone.

Wait...this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why are we arguing something else?

I'm saying that some careers give the ability to acquire a ship in exchange for ship shares. If there's 3 shares required, then each on is 1/3 ownership of the ship. Right?

The problem is when you only can own 2/3's of a ship. Who owns the other third? In my case, I'm saying the University is investing in this expedition (via government grants) and are the other 1/3rd owner. That also explains the connection the PC has to acquiring the ship.

 

[robject]

I know you have been doing this longer than me, but isn't this a bit cramped?
Both for quarters and bridge?

Oh yes, the bridge is cramped, yes.

And, the quarters would be quite cramped, except for all that generous space for research!

 

[robject]

Yes, well, the Solomani government is arranging for him to acquire the ship. He doesn't know it yet, but they are going to "recruit" him for a Rimward trip to The Great Torbah. Silly prof, he thinks he's headed to the Malorn Union.

So yes, the University will fund the expedition (yeah, it's the University doing it, right). They will own 1/3 of the ship (and 1/3 of any profits that come from it) and pay for the wages of the team that the prof doesn't want. (The University isn't happy that someone is forcing their hand to do this, so they are going to try to set the prof up for failure.)

That's what I've come up with so far....still working on it.

Brilliant! Plenty there for interest. Who's the "face" of the University to the players? I see the partial-owner is a professor. I would play it with the Dean being his friend, but not in full control of the situation. Instead, something like the "Board of Directors" are pulling the strings... a faceless entity to loathe.

Maybe there's a particular Director (what's his name? what's his beef?) who has a minor grudge against the Department Of Whatever Your Professor Is Doing. Thus all this "wasteful spending" on "foolish missionary trips to the outback to recover potsherds on worthless planets" comes up every time there's a funding drive.

And of course behind THAT is the Solomani government. So they're forcing this Director to play along... for now. Since no government is united, that means he's working with the minority coalition. And someday, that minority coalition will have their turn in power, and he will be Appointed, and get that Title he has coveted for decades... and THEN he will CRUSH that pesky Dean and his Minions (including the player characters) once and for all!!

 

[robject]

Having said that, I don't disagree about getting a lab ship for 3 ship shares as sounding kinda cheap. Then again, in order to do it my character didn't muster out until he was 48. So, cheap may be a relative term.

Cheap is indeed a relative term.

Frankly, I like your interpretation. Until today, I had figured those three ship shares to be an all-or-nothing deal. And a referee could still interpret it that way and be SAFE. But your interpretation works too. In short, I like them both, and both have their uses.

As far as players with riches. The referee adapts the game to the players, while the players play within the sandbox of the referee's universe. Collaborations and negotiations will happen. The goal is to have fun.