combat system

[trader jim]

what is the twilight 2000 combat system like??
is it RPG or miniatures or bothe or what?? the system sounds interesting - although maby out of date but still usable.

 

[Uncle Bob]

It has been ten years since I played it, and I can't find my books, so don't hold me to details, but...

I never used it with miniatures, but strictly as a roleplaying system. In fact, after the collapse of the Soviet Block Murph used the rules for a home brew espionage/Cthulu game we called "Twilight 1990".

Murph eventually switched to Cyberpunk rules, but I still consider (the original, not the later House) TW2000 rules to be the finest contemporary combat system on the market. As for being dated, some small changes would have to be made to the weapons lists (Russian thermobaric weapons, AT-4s instead of LAWs, no CAWS (*sniff*), etc) but less than you'd think. Very hard to munchkin, too.

Of course, being contemporary military combat there are guns, guns, guns, and more GUNS.

 

[vegascat]

I did a couple of years of T2000 as a GM. The combat system was quite detailed, but led to Rambo syndrome. I had guys hit 10 or more time each still effective by the rules. Of course some did die, but not too many.
Game ended by a Darwin suicide. They tried to hijack a fuel convoy to get gas for their M1. They hid in a ditch beside a road ready for the convoy. A guy opened fire with a LAW at the lead APC. Missed so bad he hit the tanker right beside the ditch, bursting it. No one survived the flaming fuel that filled the ditch as they tried to get out.

As I recall, it was a percentile based system. don't have the books with me, or I would check for you.
Vehicle damage system was great, weapons were quite detailed and armor worked to. Other than the Rambo Syndrome, it was a usable system.

 

[vegascat]

To answer your question, it is a RPG combat system that can use minatures. To use it for a minatures battle, you would find it excessively detailed in the damage tables. The Rambo syndrome again kicks in. When you hit, you rolled damage, number of die depending on the weapon. The armor subtracted from the damage, then each vehicle system hit subtracted some more. You could easily hit a tank, penatrate, and not hurt anyone inside, other than fragging the radio and other nonessentials. It was a bit unrealistic that way.

 

[Herodotus]

If you've ever palyed Traveller, The New Era You've used the same combat system as Twilight: 2000 . It was the rule system that GDW had been using as their house rules at the end.
I did come up with a way to reduce the "Rambo effect". I changed the damage dice form six siders to ten siders. I also made the dice rolls "Open ended". By that I mean, if any of the dice that were rolled where a 10, you got to reroll that (or those) die (dice) again and add them to the total damage. If any of the rerolled dice where tens, you got to roll them again! And so one, and so on. It still takes many more hits then is resonable to kill someone, but it cuts down on the mad charges on the heavy machinegun positions. For a more realistic campagin I cut down the number of hit points of a given wound level.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Twilight 2000 2nd edition was the first set of rules corrupted into the awful "house system." I know a lot of players think that was the Twilight 2000.

Under 1st Edition rules we didn't have a problem with the Rambo syndrome. Did anyone else?

 

[Herodotus]

Actually I did play the first addition rules. I much prefured their vehical rules to the second edition. But the first adition where just about as vunerable to the "Rambo Effect" if you ran them as writen. Character's could take a huge number of hits before it really started to slow them down. I did modafie them so that your hit points for an area were all your hit points for that area. Also the "three shot" ammo rules were annoying. You are in a low ammo supply environment, yet you can't take a shot that uses less than three rounds of ammo? A good sniper would just cringe at that rule.
I actually prefured the second addition rules for most things. I like games where stats make a real difference. In the first rules, due to the way characters were created, the worse the stats, the better the character.
I think I would have liked to see something half way between the first and second addition rules

 

[Herodotus]

You'll have to pardon the spelling and grammar in the previous post. My spelling and grammar are poor, at best. under normal circumstances. I tried to write that last post while being involved in two different chats on-line and talking to someone in the room with me, all at the same time. Not a good idea for me . I actually hit "Add Reply" instead of "Preview Post". Also not a good thing for me to do

.

I would also like to mention that I liked the history for the setting in the first edition much better than any of the versions they came out with in later editions. I actually kept the orginal story regardless of which version of T2K I was running . Unfortunetly, someone walked off with my first edition or T2K and I no longer have that. If any one knows where I could find a copy of the history for first edition I would be very greatful!

 

[Uncle Bob]

The three-round fire rules bothered me at first, but some combat veterans eventually convinced me that it came pretty close to how fire-arms combat actually happens. Even if you are worrying about ammo you'll keep squeezing if you have a target.

There does need to be a seperate set of sniper rules, but it makes far more sense to make the basic rules cover the other 90% of combat and combatants.

I need to dig out my rules and notes and see why didn't have Rambo problems. However, most small arms wounds are not immediately lethal or even disabling. This is a lesson every deer hunter learns and the US Army is relearning in Afghanistan. Of course, if you let them shoot holes in you you may die tommorrow or next week, and you certainly won't be any good to the party.

 

[Clay r bush]

Re: Rambo effect

DARK CONSPIRACY carried forward the house system. The second, post-GDW edition revised the hit point formulas. It roughly halved the number of hit points

I used this modification when I ran several adventures at GenCons. I ran several mercenary T2K adventures set in the real world, without a WWIII. I also ran a series of STARGATE adventures, and a handful of actual DARK CONSPIRACY adventures. The modification did improve the game.

 

[savage]

It has been a few years since I GM'ed a game of T2000. Also I wrote a GDW T2000 module. Purely,
a v1.0 fan.

A "Rambo effect" was easily occured during the game. Herodotus had some good ideas on evening out the combat.

We developed an action chart so players (and refs)
could track the activities throughout the combat. Also, I would use NPCs developed as player characters to improve NPC effectiveness.

Savage

 

[vegascat]

You make me glad I never tried the "house rules" I stuck with T2000 1st edition with a group while stationed in Germany, used local maps and locations. Being able to walk the ground made a difference.
The balance for chargen was excellent, very hard to make a munchkin, but not impossible.
Not suprised to see how many of you had problems with the Rambo effect.

 

[Vargr Merc]

I ran a long T:2000 campaign, both 1st and 2nd edition. Rambo style play in my game, regardless of edition always seemed to result in a fatality. Of course, most of us were active duty or prior service, so we took an extreme view on wound effects.

My largest game started with the Kalisz breakout and had 33 players. 12 hours later, we had 7 survivors, and they became my core group for the next several years.

Six Actual, Out.

 

[trader jim]

now thats MY kinda game - a real shoot em up MONSTER!!! thats the kind o games that produce legends!!! 33players all armed to the teeth, last man standing is the winner - a 12 hours traveller gun fight - traveller bodies littering the game table - what a mess!! i would like to see the STATS and weapon types ect, ect. yup you got bragging rights!!!! as a GM yuo gotta be GOOD!!!
what did you say after it was all over?? what did you do??? i would have fallin out of my chair!!!

 

[Vargr Merc]

now thats MY kinda game - a real shoot em up MONSTER!!! thats the kind o games that produce legends!!! 33players all armed to the teeth, last man standing is the winner - a 12 hours traveller gun fight - traveller bodies littering the game table - what a mess!! i would like to see the STATS and weapon types ect, ect. yup you got bragging rights!!!! as a GM yuo gotta be GOOD!!!

They started with a 5 ton truck, a deuce and a half, two hummers, an M1 and a M60. I started the group out in town near the command post, and they booked out of town fast when the Division TOC went up.

The M60 got hit while they were breaking through the Soviet tank army encircling Kalisz. That killed 2, and wounded the gunner. While they moved cross country, the girl playing our only medic rolled poorly and it was determined that the only way to save him (the gunner) would be to amputate his leg. Not having much to work with, she chose a chainsaw for the task (she would for ever after, no matter what game, be referred to as Chainsaw). Later there was an accident where the 2-1/2 ton caught fire. One guy was trapped in the cab, stuck because he was wearing a backpack full of Soviet RPG rounds. He couldn't get himself free, and as the fire got closer and closer to him, he started making panic rolls to free himself. The Marine Force Recon Major stood by with his 9mm to put him out of his misery, and at the exact moment he managed to extricate himself yelling "I'm free!", the Major also fired and plugged him square in the forehead.

Then there was the girl who called in mortar fire on her own position. (One of the guys worked in the S2 at his base and had been able to aquire actual military maps for the Kalisz area, so she called in a grid, and it turned out to be her own) She died with the first WP round...that was the only time that night that the mortar crew ever hit their target.

Of course, not all things went poorly for the group. They happened upon a small farmhouse where some soviet deserters were having their way with the lady and her daughters. The Major and some of the Rangers in the group moved in and caught them with their pants down. They left them gagged and bound to chairs in the kitchen and drove away as the women went in with the axe and kitchen knives.

There were others throughout the night that fumbled their grenade tosses, or refused medical care after the M60 tanker had died while being treated earlier.

But even these many years later, I still meet people who played that night who go, "Hey, that was a blast!" or "Hey, remember that Twilight adventure you ran back when.."

Kind of miss the good old days. Not as many people to play with anymore.

Six Actual, Out.

 

[trader jim]

thank you Vargr Merc, i am sitting here with a silly grin on my face!!! i actully started to laugh!!! man - what a great game!!! i wonder if i can still get the core rules on ebay??? donha just LOVE willi peat and Napalm?? i just gotta try this game!!!

 

[trader jim]

help - there is a ton of twilight 2000 stuff on ebay - what was the date of the last issue released?? what should i look for?? any thing special i should bid on?? how many editions are there?? whats the latest and last?? Help, Help!!!!

 

[Arsulon]

Wow. What an utterly stupendous goat-rodeo. That's got to be one of the best gamer stories I've heard in a while: heck, you ought to submit it to Kenzerco, it sounds just like a Knights of the Dinner Table episode.

 

[Craig]

I can see it now: Hacklight: 2000. I can see Bob playing the medic and demanding experience points for the M60 tanker...

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by trader jim:
help - there is a ton of twilight 2000 stuff on ebay - what was the date of the last issue released?? what should i look for?? any thing special i should bid on?? how many editions are there?? whats the latest and last?? Help, Help!!!!

Two editions. 1st Edition , early 80s, much preferred IMHO. I think this is a pretty complete list:
http://www.farfuture.net/2000quick.html