Collectors may need a nerf

[mike wightman]

I was playing around with using collectors to power the jump drives for my fleet tenders when it struck me - an invading fleet now has the capability to empty hex jump to any target world and you won't find out about it until they are demanding your surrender.

I think Marc needs to limit them in some way - much longer recharge times in empty hexes or go back to requiring close proximity to a star to recharge.

 

[robject]

I was playing around with using collectors to power the jump drives for my fleet tenders when it struck me - an invading fleet now has the capability to empty hex jump to any target world and you won't find out about it until they are demanding your surrender.

I think Marc needs to limit them in some way - much longer recharge times in empty hexes or go back to requiring close proximity to a star to recharge.

Yes, I've noted this. You can also cross any Rift you like.

 

[Ackehece]

collectors
are they really that much of an issue? I mean Jump starts at TL9 and collectors start at TL 14 for Jump 1. At that point Jump 5 is already available.
I guess you could show a collector down to TL 10 as an experimental prototype - but insystem only since efficiencies round down for jump drive stage effects the collector at anything less than TL 14 would be JUMP 0!
Rifts would have caches already to allow cross rift jumps by that time (or are at least buildable) and defence in depth has always been a Traveller trait. After all a SPB is almost always more capable a war vessel then jump ships.
Jump line blockage for escaping fleets might also be a means of stopping a collector fleet from raiding.
After they leave block their jump line with a towed asteroid fort or some such thing... mine the area.. and 1 week later when they pop out... annihilate them.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Question here:

Has it been said definitively that there is nothing at all in empty hexes? I only ask as I had thought that there was nothing important or at least systems with no terrestrial planets of relevance in empty hexes. In RL this is not the case. But this is Traveller...

 

[Ackehece]

Question here:

Has it been said definitively that there is nothing at all in empty hexes? I only ask as I had thought that there was nothing important or at least systems with no terrestrial planets of relevance in empty hexes. In RL this is not the case. But this is Traveller...

Not totally empty, just mostly so -> historically they have found comets, cold wanderer planets, wrecks etc - just not a star
Deep Space Fuel Caches are hidden across some rifts to allow secret fast access to other territories.


3234 Deneb (Great Rift) is a listed as having a comet used to refuel the "Arrival Vengeance" to help shortcut on her trip home. (page 24)

 

[Ackehece]

also related ...
Hop Drives are starting to appear in the T5 timeline... so the tactical concerns are already present from another technology at Tl-17 (many worlds 16++) so standard Hop Drives should be available in limited numbers....

Hop can skip Rifts and traditional defense corridors... (windhorn corridor)
It still takes careful planning to cross but the number of crossing points is increased.

 

[mike wightman]

Forget hop for a moment.

Collectors would allow the Aslan to cross the great rift at will and the Zhodani to attack the important worlds in the SM with no warning.

 

[mike wightman]

Errata - standard collectors are TL13 in some places but TL14 in the chart...

 

[robject]

Errata - standard collectors are TL13 in some places but TL14 in the chart...

That IS errata. Shouldn't be TL13 anywhere.

I suspect: A straightforward summation of the problem could convince Marc to bump them up to TL15. But it would have to be compelling... and, apparently, crossing rifts and ambushing unsuspecting worlds at Jump-1 may not be compelling enough.

I think Collectors have to really break things in order to be changed. Itemize.

 

[Ackehece]

Jump 1 at TL 14 (or 13) still is 16 Jumps! to Imperial space across the shortest rift between the Aslan and imperial space. Vargr are min 18!
That means 1 week in jump 1 and 1 week in collection(pg384) x 16 for a lots of supplies and time to cross such a rift 32 weeks - 1/2 a year! :coffeesip: Most ships don't carry 1/2 a year of supplies and that of course assumes that they don't have to retreat so 1 year worth of supplies...o:

Could you imagine the K'Kree stuck in a ship that long, :squirrel:ly might be the word for them...

(Even hop drives have issues crossing the rifts quickly. A collector hop/jump ship would be able to do the crossing in min 4 weeks)

Something else to think about (since we know the Imperium (as per arrival vengance) and other groups have built staging points in the rifts... A TL12 Jump3 fleet with planned staging points can cross the rift in ~11 weeks (6 jumps and 5 staging points)

Errata? Maybe, but it doesn't seem to contradict itself
Collector Jumps Tech Levels (T509):
pg294 2 places on the page Tl14
pg 297 TL14

pg 351 (Is this where your confusion is?)
Drive tech for Collectors is TL14, Collector Design is TL13 for 100% efficient collectors.
This is the only place in T509 that suggest TL13 and it is specifically relating to the Collector Tech and not the jump tech (as that is referenced separately on this chart
*you actually hit 100% on collector design efficiency at TL13 - but collector jump not 100% till TL14*
​

pg 382 TL14
pg 494 TL14
pg 502 TL14
pg 505 TL14
To fix/Build Canopies
pg 384 TL14
pg 385 TL14
pg 408 TL14
​

 

[robject]

There is an interesting problem in logistics there, if it takes 2 weeks to jump 1 parsec.

 

[Ackehece]

There is an interesting problem in logistics there, if it takes 2 weeks to jump 1 parsec.

1 week for the jump **168hours +/- 10%,
1 week for the recharge **168 hours
+ time to extend (1 hour) and retract Canopy (10+flux hours).
so slightly more than a week more like 8 days...


pg 383-384 have an interesting editing artifact.
1/3 of the way through page 383 the line is
"Too Fragile to withstand accelera-
switches to a different topic for the next 2/3 of the page
and then on pg 384 it continues "tion, it must be stowed before the ship accelerates."

 

[Ackehece]

I was playing around with using collectors to power the jump drives for my fleet tenders when it struck me - an invading fleet now has the capability to empty hex jump to any target world and you won't find out about it until they are demanding your surrender.

I think Marc needs to limit them in some way - much longer recharge times in empty hexes or go back to requiring close proximity to a star to recharge.

they charge for at least 7 days + 6 hours between jumps at fastest

 

[mike wightman]

It's still a lot faster than caching fuel in empty hexes to allow a fleet to move through incontestable empty hexes...

 

[Ackehece]

It's still a lot faster than caching fuel in empty hexes to allow a fleet to move through incontestable empty hexes...

true but a collector fleet would take at least 1/2 year to cross the rift at TL14
and 1/4 year at Tl 15...
a little prep over the years between wars would mean that staging bases are much more likely then no retreat line.

 

[mike wightman]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Zhodani attacking Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor and Trin all with no warning.

By the way the error appears to be in the collector table - standard is given a TL of introduction of 13.

 

[whartung]

Most ships don't carry 1/2 a year of supplies and that of course assumes that they don't have to retreat so 1 year worth of supplies...

As a general rule, I don't carry several days worth of provisions on my body when going about the day.

However, when off wandering in the wilderness for days on end, i actually take the time to make arrangements to carry such provisions. In fact, I may go as far as to actually change the food stuffs I eat to accommodate the new circumstances of the venture.

I'd like to think that were a fleet to make a penetration run across deep space -- they just may well either design the ships differently, augment their capability, or even bring additional ships to help manage the unique problems of long term, deep space travel.

 

[Ackehece]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Zhodani attacking Mora, Glisten, Rhylanor and Trin all with no warning.

By the way the error appears to be in the collector table - standard is given a TL of introduction of 13.

as per previous post...



pg 351
Drive for Collectors is TL14, Collector Design is TL13 for 100% efficient collectors.
This is the only place in T509 that suggest TL13 and it is specifically relating to the Collector Tech and not the jump tech (as that is referenced separately on this chart
*you actually hit 100% on collector design efficiency at TL13 - but collector jump not 100% till TL14*

there is definitely a differentiation on the tech listed on that table.

 

[Ackehece]

As a general rule, I don't carry several days worth of provisions on my body when going about the day.

However, when off wandering in the wilderness for days on end, i actually take the time to make arrangements to carry such provisions. In fact, I may go as far as to actually change the food stuffs I eat to accommodate the new circumstances of the venture.

I'd like to think that were a fleet to make a penetration run across deep space -- they just may well either design the ships differently, augment their capability, or even bring additional ships to help manage the unique problems of long term, deep space travel.

true... but fleet staging bases are just as viable of a solution (and don't require retrofitting or building a new fleet (which is patently obvious to enemy spies).

1/2 a year is not the same as a few day hike either either.

a fleet with hidden staging basis can cross most places faster than those
collector ships... and collector ships can't run away from a fight...

 

[mike wightman]

as per previous post...



pg 351
Drive for Collectors is TL14, Collector Design is TL13 for 100% efficient collectors.
This is the only place in T509 that suggest TL13 and it is specifically relating to the Collector Tech and not the jump tech (as that is referenced separately on this chart
*you actually hit 100% on collector design efficiency at TL13 - but collector jump not 100% till TL14*

there is definitely a differentiation on the tech listed on that table.

That makes no sense whatsoever.