COACC

[rhoneycutt]

In the manuevers described, the planes were not travelling at hypersonic speeds. Harriers already use 'viff'ing' ( vectored flight ) in dogfighting, but again, at below mach speeds. All the planes mentioned have airframes stressed to more than +-6 G's. My point is that starfighters are designed to handle their own max acceleration. More, unless the design spec calls for it, will just add mass and remove volume hurting overall performance. Even then, it would be 6G's longintudianlly, along the length of the hull. Not neccessarily stressed for such in other directions. Also, I say that if such a fighter decelerates more than 6 G's, it will crumple too ( like hitting water? )
Inertial compensation does not eliminate the fighter's inertia ( Doc E.E. Smith anyone? ), but simply allows people to not be tossed around. So pilot's won't black out so quick.....aerofighters might have AI to handle things until the pilot gets back....or worse for the starfighter pilots...the aerofighters might be UAV planes like the himat series....G's are limited only by airframe. Starfighters would not be so due to communications lag, perhaps.

this seems to be a case of arguing real life capabilities vs. fantasy capabilities, as illustated by the use of holding Independance day up as an example of what would happen in real life.

I'll do things as I feel is right IMTU, and grav tech so unbalances the game away from cool things like trains and planes and ships and cars and stuff, that IMTU, I severely limit it compared to OTU.

by the way...the speeds would be limited by atmospheric heating, so speed would not automatically be in favor of the starfighter except were its armor can handle temps significantly higher than ceramics ( iirc, no material can suvive more than 3000C anyways )

but then, I'm anal enough to work out ballpark figures for drag coefficients and stuff.

 

[rhoneycutt]

In the manuevers described, the planes were not travelling at hypersonic speeds. Harriers already use 'viff'ing' ( vectored flight ) in dogfighting, but again, at below mach speeds. All the planes mentioned have airframes stressed to more than +-6 G's. My point is that starfighters are designed to handle their own max acceleration. More, unless the design spec calls for it, will just add mass and remove volume hurting overall performance. Even then, it would be 6G's longintudianlly, along the length of the hull. Not neccessarily stressed for such in other directions. Also, I say that if such a fighter decelerates more than 6 G's, it will crumple too ( like hitting water? )
Inertial compensation does not eliminate the fighter's inertia ( Doc E.E. Smith anyone? ), but simply allows people to not be tossed around. So pilot's won't black out so quick.....aerofighters might have AI to handle things until the pilot gets back....or worse for the starfighter pilots...the aerofighters might be UAV planes like the himat series....G's are limited only by airframe. Starfighters would not be so due to communications lag, perhaps.

this seems to be a case of arguing real life capabilities vs. fantasy capabilities, as illustated by the use of holding Independance day up as an example of what would happen in real life.

I'll do things as I feel is right IMTU, and grav tech so unbalances the game away from cool things like trains and planes and ships and cars and stuff, that IMTU, I severely limit it compared to OTU.

by the way...the speeds would be limited by atmospheric heating, so speed would not automatically be in favor of the starfighter except were its armor can handle temps significantly higher than ceramics ( iirc, no material can suvive more than 3000C anyways )

but then, I'm anal enough to work out ballpark figures for drag coefficients and stuff.

 

[rhoneycutt]

In the manuevers described, the planes were not travelling at hypersonic speeds. Harriers already use 'viff'ing' ( vectored flight ) in dogfighting, but again, at below mach speeds. All the planes mentioned have airframes stressed to more than +-6 G's. My point is that starfighters are designed to handle their own max acceleration. More, unless the design spec calls for it, will just add mass and remove volume hurting overall performance. Even then, it would be 6G's longintudianlly, along the length of the hull. Not neccessarily stressed for such in other directions. Also, I say that if such a fighter decelerates more than 6 G's, it will crumple too ( like hitting water? )
Inertial compensation does not eliminate the fighter's inertia ( Doc E.E. Smith anyone? ), but simply allows people to not be tossed around. So pilot's won't black out so quick.....aerofighters might have AI to handle things until the pilot gets back....or worse for the starfighter pilots...the aerofighters might be UAV planes like the himat series....G's are limited only by airframe. Starfighters would not be so due to communications lag, perhaps.

this seems to be a case of arguing real life capabilities vs. fantasy capabilities, as illustated by the use of holding Independance day up as an example of what would happen in real life.

I'll do things as I feel is right IMTU, and grav tech so unbalances the game away from cool things like trains and planes and ships and cars and stuff, that IMTU, I severely limit it compared to OTU.

by the way...the speeds would be limited by atmospheric heating, so speed would not automatically be in favor of the starfighter except were its armor can handle temps significantly higher than ceramics ( iirc, no material can suvive more than 3000C anyways )

but then, I'm anal enough to work out ballpark figures for drag coefficients and stuff.

 

[aramis]

Keep in mind, Shere, that an airframe design is inherently ALSO an aircraft. MT, TNE, T4, and T20 all provide for it. So they will be stressed to handle Engine in longitudinal G's, and like most modern fighters (in the 2-3G range, most of them), stressed to at least 10G's, if not more, to account for airframe induced stresses.

The harriers publicly rated for 16+G's off axis; She can easily generate more in a viffing situation, but the computers prevent that.

Grav will enhance aircraft and tanks; it will not completely blend the two, but will merge them into one family. Take a high performance fighter, give it inertial compensation and gravitic thrust. You now have a harrier with fewer moving parts, and 360x180 thrust capability (albeit not all the same thrust levels) per MT SSOM.

Add some jet engines for high speed boosting, and you have a superharrier. I like to think of it as the OBSG Viper; the rams are for atmosphereic use, the sealed reactor can heat a working fluid for space use, and the gravitics make it completely VTOL; the wings are too small for lift, so they are simply atmospheric controls...

My beef with COACC is not accounting for mixed designs.

 

[aramis]

Keep in mind, Shere, that an airframe design is inherently ALSO an aircraft. MT, TNE, T4, and T20 all provide for it. So they will be stressed to handle Engine in longitudinal G's, and like most modern fighters (in the 2-3G range, most of them), stressed to at least 10G's, if not more, to account for airframe induced stresses.

The harriers publicly rated for 16+G's off axis; She can easily generate more in a viffing situation, but the computers prevent that.

Grav will enhance aircraft and tanks; it will not completely blend the two, but will merge them into one family. Take a high performance fighter, give it inertial compensation and gravitic thrust. You now have a harrier with fewer moving parts, and 360x180 thrust capability (albeit not all the same thrust levels) per MT SSOM.

Add some jet engines for high speed boosting, and you have a superharrier. I like to think of it as the OBSG Viper; the rams are for atmosphereic use, the sealed reactor can heat a working fluid for space use, and the gravitics make it completely VTOL; the wings are too small for lift, so they are simply atmospheric controls...

My beef with COACC is not accounting for mixed designs.

 

[aramis]

Keep in mind, Shere, that an airframe design is inherently ALSO an aircraft. MT, TNE, T4, and T20 all provide for it. So they will be stressed to handle Engine in longitudinal G's, and like most modern fighters (in the 2-3G range, most of them), stressed to at least 10G's, if not more, to account for airframe induced stresses.

The harriers publicly rated for 16+G's off axis; She can easily generate more in a viffing situation, but the computers prevent that.

Grav will enhance aircraft and tanks; it will not completely blend the two, but will merge them into one family. Take a high performance fighter, give it inertial compensation and gravitic thrust. You now have a harrier with fewer moving parts, and 360x180 thrust capability (albeit not all the same thrust levels) per MT SSOM.

Add some jet engines for high speed boosting, and you have a superharrier. I like to think of it as the OBSG Viper; the rams are for atmosphereic use, the sealed reactor can heat a working fluid for space use, and the gravitics make it completely VTOL; the wings are too small for lift, so they are simply atmospheric controls...

My beef with COACC is not accounting for mixed designs.

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Shere Khan:
I'll do things as I feel is right IMTU, and grav tech so unbalances the game away from cool things like trains and planes and ships and cars and stuff, that IMTU, I severely limit it compared to OTU.

Limiting grav tech is not a bad thing. It forces your PC's to actually travel thru the landscape, thus making it easier for the GM to throw those animal and people encounters at them...

I think grav should be limited on low-to-mid TL worlds - especially for mass-transport systems - but commonplace on TL 13+ worlds. Here's one place I really dislike T4: in the Vehicle design system, it is stated "to make things move is easy", and it reduces the price of grav tech to bargain basement levels. I rather prefer PC's to have to scrape up Cr600,000 for a Tl 8 air/raft, don't you? (Of course, maybe you can argue that this is in TL 8 credits, and at TL 15 it only costs Cr250,000 or so...)

Otherwise, how else can you put in Heinlein's jump-trains??

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Shere Khan:
I'll do things as I feel is right IMTU, and grav tech so unbalances the game away from cool things like trains and planes and ships and cars and stuff, that IMTU, I severely limit it compared to OTU.

Limiting grav tech is not a bad thing. It forces your PC's to actually travel thru the landscape, thus making it easier for the GM to throw those animal and people encounters at them...

I think grav should be limited on low-to-mid TL worlds - especially for mass-transport systems - but commonplace on TL 13+ worlds. Here's one place I really dislike T4: in the Vehicle design system, it is stated "to make things move is easy", and it reduces the price of grav tech to bargain basement levels. I rather prefer PC's to have to scrape up Cr600,000 for a Tl 8 air/raft, don't you? (Of course, maybe you can argue that this is in TL 8 credits, and at TL 15 it only costs Cr250,000 or so...)

Otherwise, how else can you put in Heinlein's jump-trains??

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Shere Khan:
I'll do things as I feel is right IMTU, and grav tech so unbalances the game away from cool things like trains and planes and ships and cars and stuff, that IMTU, I severely limit it compared to OTU.

Limiting grav tech is not a bad thing. It forces your PC's to actually travel thru the landscape, thus making it easier for the GM to throw those animal and people encounters at them...

I think grav should be limited on low-to-mid TL worlds - especially for mass-transport systems - but commonplace on TL 13+ worlds. Here's one place I really dislike T4: in the Vehicle design system, it is stated "to make things move is easy", and it reduces the price of grav tech to bargain basement levels. I rather prefer PC's to have to scrape up Cr600,000 for a Tl 8 air/raft, don't you? (Of course, maybe you can argue that this is in TL 8 credits, and at TL 15 it only costs Cr250,000 or so...)

Otherwise, how else can you put in Heinlein's jump-trains??

 

[aramis]

I both love and hate the Expensive Grav of CT/MT.

It is überuseful. And it costs that way, too!

The question, David, is how do we achieve that without breaking the system? If grav is expensive, then it is still expensive for HiSt HiPop worlds. The speed and efficiency can only accommodate so far before finances take over.

If it's cheap, and reliable, and useful, it's going to be dominant anywhere it exists.

If it's cheap at, say, TL12, and more than 10% more at TL 11, a TL 11 world with a TL12+ neighbor will import the modules.

 

[aramis]

I both love and hate the Expensive Grav of CT/MT.

It is überuseful. And it costs that way, too!

The question, David, is how do we achieve that without breaking the system? If grav is expensive, then it is still expensive for HiSt HiPop worlds. The speed and efficiency can only accommodate so far before finances take over.

If it's cheap, and reliable, and useful, it's going to be dominant anywhere it exists.

If it's cheap at, say, TL12, and more than 10% more at TL 11, a TL 11 world with a TL12+ neighbor will import the modules.

 

[aramis]

I both love and hate the Expensive Grav of CT/MT.

It is überuseful. And it costs that way, too!

The question, David, is how do we achieve that without breaking the system? If grav is expensive, then it is still expensive for HiSt HiPop worlds. The speed and efficiency can only accommodate so far before finances take over.

If it's cheap, and reliable, and useful, it's going to be dominant anywhere it exists.

If it's cheap at, say, TL12, and more than 10% more at TL 11, a TL 11 world with a TL12+ neighbor will import the modules.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

But, Aramis, they will only get imported for the really important uses or the really important people if they are very expensive.

Check out this post for my latest take on gravitics. (I'm just thinking out loud, here....)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

But, Aramis, they will only get imported for the really important uses or the really important people if they are very expensive.

Check out this post for my latest take on gravitics. (I'm just thinking out loud, here....)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

But, Aramis, they will only get imported for the really important uses or the really important people if they are very expensive.

Check out this post for my latest take on gravitics. (I'm just thinking out loud, here....)

 

[aramis]

If the HT one cost less than local ones for same or better performance, they will get imported for as many uses as people can get them for within the affordability curve.

Say Joe makes TL10 Widgets on Zho for Cr500 per functional unit.
Sue makes TL11 Widgets on Gue for Cr100 PFU.

Lets assume they both are black-box tech, and use identical interfaces.

If the cost of shipping the TL11 ones is less than 400 each, then the the rate of import to local will reflect that. If the cost is less than Cr100, then you can expect the locals on Zho will be using the TL11 Widgets almost exclusively, and the widget factories on Zho will close, or the government will sanction against them.

If they are dead even in final cost, the locals will probably stick to the local ones except for specific size/weight needs, and jack the prices accordingly.

If the higher tech ones are far better in price to performance, they will, sooner or later be imported for mainstream use. See also China and Windows...

 

[aramis]

If the HT one cost less than local ones for same or better performance, they will get imported for as many uses as people can get them for within the affordability curve.

Say Joe makes TL10 Widgets on Zho for Cr500 per functional unit.
Sue makes TL11 Widgets on Gue for Cr100 PFU.

Lets assume they both are black-box tech, and use identical interfaces.

If the cost of shipping the TL11 ones is less than 400 each, then the the rate of import to local will reflect that. If the cost is less than Cr100, then you can expect the locals on Zho will be using the TL11 Widgets almost exclusively, and the widget factories on Zho will close, or the government will sanction against them.

If they are dead even in final cost, the locals will probably stick to the local ones except for specific size/weight needs, and jack the prices accordingly.

If the higher tech ones are far better in price to performance, they will, sooner or later be imported for mainstream use. See also China and Windows...

 

[aramis]

If the HT one cost less than local ones for same or better performance, they will get imported for as many uses as people can get them for within the affordability curve.

Say Joe makes TL10 Widgets on Zho for Cr500 per functional unit.
Sue makes TL11 Widgets on Gue for Cr100 PFU.

Lets assume they both are black-box tech, and use identical interfaces.

If the cost of shipping the TL11 ones is less than 400 each, then the the rate of import to local will reflect that. If the cost is less than Cr100, then you can expect the locals on Zho will be using the TL11 Widgets almost exclusively, and the widget factories on Zho will close, or the government will sanction against them.

If they are dead even in final cost, the locals will probably stick to the local ones except for specific size/weight needs, and jack the prices accordingly.

If the higher tech ones are far better in price to performance, they will, sooner or later be imported for mainstream use. See also China and Windows...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Sorry, Aramis, I read your post sdrawkcab. I thought you were saying they would import if the higher TL were only 10% more in cost. You are right.

Now, it might skew the economy on the TL10 world, even if the TL11 widget costs more. If the TL11 widgets are not a major leap, but cost enough more, the price for the TL10 widgets might rise to fill in the gap. The price would settle wherever the desire for a "better" widget is not quite as strong as the urge to save a few CrImps. Of course, a variation might occur, where the TL10 stuff is good enough and so much cheaper that it will get imported to the TL11 world. Because of the natural rising of wages with "progress" (like TLs), the TL11 world probably can't make the lower TL widgets as cheaply as the TL10 world.

Which means you might find aircraft filling their normal roles - even on a moderate TL world - because they are more cost-effective to import than grav vehicles are to make, for the same purpose.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Sorry, Aramis, I read your post sdrawkcab. I thought you were saying they would import if the higher TL were only 10% more in cost. You are right.

Now, it might skew the economy on the TL10 world, even if the TL11 widget costs more. If the TL11 widgets are not a major leap, but cost enough more, the price for the TL10 widgets might rise to fill in the gap. The price would settle wherever the desire for a "better" widget is not quite as strong as the urge to save a few CrImps. Of course, a variation might occur, where the TL10 stuff is good enough and so much cheaper that it will get imported to the TL11 world. Because of the natural rising of wages with "progress" (like TLs), the TL11 world probably can't make the lower TL widgets as cheaply as the TL10 world.

Which means you might find aircraft filling their normal roles - even on a moderate TL world - because they are more cost-effective to import than grav vehicles are to make, for the same purpose.