Clones in the Third Imperium

[Ulsyus]

The discussion about robots has been broad and deep. I have a much better picture of the possible extent of robot use in 3I and some other states that I can apply in my campaign, as well as what they'll look like and likely interact with others. For the record, my players in their modified Fat Trader have a 'bot assisting the Engineer plus a second one as the No. 2 gunner.


Throughout all the discussion about robot workers replacing sophonts, there's been no mention of clones (okay, not in the original thread title). The B³ p120 provides some information on Guests. The description of Zognar's results, plus the use of clones by Naasirka, indicate that there are circumstances where clones would replace sophonts as a workforce. Where does it stop though? What are the times and places where we could expect to see clones rather than humans as the muscle in a workforce, rather than the rest of us, or possibly even robots?

 

[David Johansen]

The problem is that the clone is technically an Imperial citizen as it is sentient. There was a lot of discussion on the position of AIs and clones in MT and TNE. For instance Arch Duke Noris had a gender swapped clone who worked as a functionary. But of course the Imperium often breaks its own rules at top levels.

Similarly a clone that's your legal heir isn't philosophically viewed as actually being you. It's a new person with your skills and assets. Consider for a moment what happens when a clone of someone is used to commit a murder while someone is still alive and kicking. The clone is the criminal not the original. Though using a clone of yourself to commit murder would also be criminal.

 

[Ulsyus]

Offspring clones, re-patterned Relicts and Med clones according to the B³ would be Imperial citizens, but Guests and unpatterned Relicts & Meds wouldn't.

If forced growth and cloning are available at TL13, which is after personality recording/editing tech has matured, at what TL would the 3I start to see Relicts start to appear regularly?

Would the nobility have a restriction of one lifetime's worth of ruling available to them? If the Baron of Sarum has a terrible accident at age 68 and has an 18 year old Med clone activated, is he forced to then pass his title on to his heir and live a comfortable retirement until that body dies?

 

[rancke]

Offspring clones, re-patterned Relicts and Med clones according to the B³ would be Imperial citizens, but Guests and unpatterned Relicts & Meds wouldn't.

If forced growth and cloning are available at TL13, which is after personality recording/editing tech has matured, at what TL would the 3I start to see Relicts start to appear regularly?

I can see that T5 also changes the rules for clones drastically. :nonono:

Would the nobility have a restriction of one lifetime's worth of ruling available to them? If the Baron of Sarum has a terrible accident at age 68 and has an 18 year old Med clone activated, is he forced to then pass his title on to his heir and live a comfortable retirement until that body dies?

Traveller is already dodging the similar question of nobles and anagathics.

In Girl Genius the nobles of Europe insist that being ressurected removes a noble from his position, be it ruler or heir.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

Yeah, the issue was explored by Elizabeth Moon in her series Serrano series.

Not that long ago the Dutch Queen abdicated in favour of her son and heir. That's a tradition of that throne. If the system worked, it'd be the simplest way to resolve the issue for the 3I: you can take anagathics or drop your memories into a Relict, but you only get to run the show for X years, then your heir takes over.

 

[Original_Carl]

When a character has their personality transferred to a clone, through Life Insurance, or from an image on wafer jack, what happens to the ability score increases gained through career resolution? Does the player roll d6 and add DNA for C1 through C4 and stop there in both cases? Or is there a difference? For example, does Life Insurance restoration include ability score gains from career resolution?

Thanks in advance. My group is starting to mess around with transhumanism and we're meeting tonight.

 

[mike wightman]

Why not pay to have the clone body engineered to be the peak of human perfection?

Which raises a question I've long pondered - what exactly do the attribute increases during generation represent? Training, bio/mechanical augmentation, genetic re-engineering?

Do attributes above 12 require such modifications since they can't be naturally rolled?

 

[Ulsyus]

When a character has their personality transferred to a clone, through Life Insurance, or from an image on wafer jack, what happens to the ability score increases gained through career resolution? Does the player roll d6 and add DNA for C1 through C4 and stop there in both cases? Or is there a difference? For example, does Life Insurance restoration include ability score gains from career resolution?

T5 p120 simply describes force-growing the clone to life-stage 3 then implanting memories taken from the last reading of the subject's mind. Strictly according to that, the PC doesn't get their career attribute increases. On the plus side, they're 18 again with an older person's skills, so they're ahead there!

Why not pay to have the clone body engineered to be the peak of human perfection?

Which raises a question I've long pondered - what exactly do the attribute increases during generation represent? Training, bio/mechanical augmentation, genetic re-engineering?

Do attributes above 12 require such modifications since they can't be naturally rolled?

If the clone was genetically engineered to have higher attributes, is it technically really a clone, or a geneered being with someone's memories? Given T5 p118 describes the process for how to derive a Relict's attributes, it's on that basis that they'd have their legal standing as the individual re-emerged.

If the DNA was fiddled with, they still have the same memories but does the law recognise them as the same person? How do you do bioware implants in your game? I know they're mentioned at times in Traveller, but I don't recall anything being clearly written on it. Has that happened anywhere?

 

[rancke]

If the clone was genetically engineered to have higher attributes, is it technically really a clone, or a geneered being with someone's memories? Given T5 p118 describes the process for how to derive a Relict's attributes, it's on that basis that they'd have their legal standing as the individual re-emerged.

But the people who run the society (and make the laws) are the very ones who are most likely to want to use this technology (Or rather, there's a strong correlation between rich people and lawmakers). Restraints MAY be plausible in democracies (though I bet rich people would have workarounds), but they're not very plausible in autocracies.


Hans

 

[jcrocker]

Which raises a question I've long pondered - what exactly do the attribute increases during generation represent? Training, bio/mechanical augmentation, genetic re-engineering?

"KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!!!"

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

My [T5 ATU] Answers.

Why not pay to have the clone body engineered to be the peak of human perfection?

Which raises a question I've long pondered - what exactly do the attribute increases during generation represent? Training, bio/mechanical augmentation, genetic re-engineering?

Do attributes above 12 require such modifications since they can't be naturally rolled?

I lean toward training for Mental, training and augmentations for the Physical, and of course The Emperor for the Social stat.

 

[Ulsyus]

Which raises a question I've long pondered - what exactly do the attribute increases during generation represent? Training, bio/mechanical augmentation, genetic re-engineering?

What best suits the story in your campaign?

I've seen guys in the military with greatly increased END and STR due to training undertaken to make it into certain units. People study at work, or outside of, to increase their EDU. I'm not so sure about INT, though that could be people learning a lot more situational common-sense over time...

 

[Ulsyus]

I was going to ask some questions about genetic augmentation, but started them in the thread here.

 

[Ulsyus]

Would it be cost effective to have forces of programmed ready clone troops (gah!) in coldsleep as an immediate reserve to be used in times of trouble until other clone troops can be grown or birthed troops can be recruited and trained and transported to the front?