Civvies with starship guns?

[Whipsnade]

Pirates historically ply waters/space that are on wealthy lanes on the edge of patroled space at key choke points with safe havens near by. Lets take these one at a time. Wealthy lanes in the case of the West Indies this was the Spanish Gold, Rum and Slave routes in Eest Indies it was spice and other goods. The West Indies though patrolled by fleets was large and the number of shipments were high so their were often not enough ships to convoy every shipment or to guard every ship. The Spanish had gold fleets to try and reduce damage. The East India had the East India company running convoys. Pirates would pick off the stragglers and the ships not assigned to the convoys. Choke points are also key. In West Indies there are only about 4 straights to get out of the Caribbean Sea, East India the Malacca Straight was a major choke point along with the horn of Africa, and the Straights of Gibraltar. At everyone of this choke points at one time or another there have been pirate havens: Barbarie Coast, Madagascar, The Bahamas, and if my memory is correct Medan for Malacca straights. Each of these were home to dozes of pirates led by one or more Pirate Princes.

There are so many things wrong in that paragraph ranging from history to geography to even spelling that it would take multiple posts to correct them all. If someone was purposely trying to write something that bad they would have been hard pressed to do so.

So pirates do exist IMTU but not because of weapons or fleets but for geopolitical reasons that have been around for thousands of years.

That is the only worthwhile part of your post. The presence of piracy has been, is, and will be a geopolitical issue.

 

[Gray Pennell]

I guess I will have to remember that you know everything. Thanks for pointing out my errors. Have a great day.

 

[Carlobrand]

... In other words, they can't visit ordinary starports and are tied by logistical problems to those corrupt ports. ...

Yup, those ports and perhaps a couple of other poorly defended nearby systems that had the bad luck to be within jump distance. That sums it up pretty nicely - and more or less reflects the game tables, which have pirates only showing up at systems with starports of C and below, and that rarely. Piracy is as much a matter of unscrupulous men exploiting circumstances as anything else.

The tale of pirate Blackbeard includes the blockade of the port of Charleston, South Carolina, in 1718 - it was a bustling Brit colonial port but had no defenses and no guard ship at the time. His tale ends, interestingly, with a force under the auspices of Virginia's governor trespassing into North Carolina's waters to attack the pirate captain at his anchorage off Ocacroke Island, thereby embarrassing the governor of North Carolina. Maybe the kind of things that might occur in the nonaligned region between Imperial and Zhodani space, or some similar hinterland - but likely not at Regina.

 

[mike wightman]

Unless it is the Duke of Regina that is giving letters of marque to the pirates in his space to attack his rival duchies during times of dispute.

 

[Whipsnade]

The tale of pirate Blackbeard includes the blockade of the port of Charleston, South Carolina, in 1718 - it was a bustling Brit colonial port but had no defenses and no guard ship at the time. His tale ends, interestingly, with a force under the auspices of Virginia's governor trespassing into North Carolina's waters to attack the pirate captain at his anchorage off Ocacroke Island, thereby embarrassing the governor of North Carolina.

An excellent point and one that reiterates the earlier point about the necessity for "political cover" in any pirate operation.

Historically, government officials, merchants, and other wealthy individuals in Britain's New World colonies were notorious for their support of piracy and it was a rare pirate who did not sail with a letter of marque issued by some colonial authority at some point during their career. The same individuals and groups who arranged for that political cover then also provided the markets and other support pirates needed. With their "home" governments and other superiors rather distant, these individuals and groups could make a tidy profit from piracy if they kept their involvement both discrete and plausibly deniable.

The last bit about remote governments and remote superiors should ring all sorts of bells for anyone who bothers to comprehend Traveller's "One Week Per Jump" communication speed.

Maybe the kind of things that might occur in the nonaligned region between Imperial and Zhodani space, or some similar hinterland - but likely not at Regina.

Exactly. The idea that the Vargr routinely fund corsair raids as business ventures isn't something GDW pulled out of thin air, there are innumerable historical examples of the same thing occurring.

Thomas Tew, the man who arguably "invented" the Pirate Round, initially put to sea as a privateer with a letter of marque issued by the governor of Bermuda to hit French holdings in Gambia, turned pirate to raid Mughal shipping between India and Arabia, was "pardoned" by the governor of New York for a cut of the loot, was funded by the same governor for a second "mission" to the same region, and did all of this with official support at the colonial level despite such ventures being against the official policy of the "central" government of William III and in direct violation of that government's treaty obligations.

I should also point out that, because the Hollywood version of piracy has already put in an appearance, historical pirates raided ashore more often than they took ships.

 

[madmike]

Many privateers following England's war with Spain in the 16th century turned pirate, particularly those in the Caribbean. They made their fortune and fame as privateers during that conflict and beyond, of which their exploits could certainly be considered piratical, even if they were not (and many were), especially by Spain.

So the Letter of Marque --> pirate link is certainly valid.

 

[Dragoner]

There is a list of worlds that could be bases for pirate activity in a JTAS.

IMTU, the Bk2 HG dichotomy is a parallel design path for civil vs warships, as such, civilian ships stand a little chance against a warship. Weaponry, however useless, might be a insurance requirement to operate in certain subsectors. Pirates though, often don't destroy freighters, just tell them to heave to and either steal their cargo or extort a hefty bribe to let them pass (why kill the goose that laid the golden egg?). Wartime, or pseudo wartime is different, with commerce raiders. The IN is a giant with feet of clay, not only with a punch below it's weight, but totally corrupt and more than willing to look the other way for the right price, esp if it is say a megacorp in a tradewar of a local Duchy carrying out punishment.

 

[Whipsnade]

IMTU, the Bk2 HG dichotomy is a parallel design path for civil vs warships, as such, civilian ships stand a little chance against a warship. Weaponry, however useless, might be a insurance requirement to operate in certain subsectors. (snip) The IN is a giant with feet of clay, not only with a punch below it's weight, but totally corrupt and more than willing to look the other way for the right price, esp if it is say a megacorp in a tradewar of a local Duchy carrying out punishment.

That is an excellent example of piracy in a personal TU. Rather than mindlessly 'port the Golden Age of Piracy into your setting like so many well meaning simpletons are wont to do, you addressed both the technological and political requirements of piracy so that it could seamlessly fit and make sense within your game.

There are reasons for civilian vessels to armed in a Traveller setting and there are reasons for civilian vessels not to be armed in a Traveller setting. Whether laser and missile turrets are present or absent aboard a Beowulf means nothing if the reason for that presence or absence is itself absent.

A GM who is intellectually honest provides their players with better reasons than "Because I say so..." or "It's kewl..."

 

[Dragoner]

There are reasons for civilian vessels to armed in a Traveller setting and there are reasons for civilian vessels not to be armed in a Traveller setting. Whether laser and missile turrets are present or absent aboard a Beowulf means nothing if the reason for that presence or absence is itself absent.

The armed Beowulf can be likened to a honey bee, an unpleasant sting to give it respect, though not enough that it cannot be swatted.

A GM who is intellectually honest provides their players with better reasons than "Because I say so..."

Agreed.

A last recourse only if something may unbalance a game, even then one should come up with post facto reasoning.

 

[Whipsnade]

The armed Beowulf can be likened to a honey bee, an unpleasant sting to give it respect, though not enough that it cannot be swatted.

Agreed. Those who bemoan the uselessness of fighters in Traveller ship combat do so because they are focused solely on fleet engagements. They need to remember what even a cheap fighter can do to a ship operated by the players.

A last recourse only if something may unbalance a game, even then one should come up with post facto reasoning.

Agreed. Players deserve reasons because RPGs are collaborative.

 

[Carlobrand]

... Pirates though, often don't destroy freighters, just tell them to heave to and either steal their cargo or extort a hefty bribe to let them pass (why kill the goose that laid the golden egg?). ...

An excellent example of roleplaying. Rolling a pirate on the encounter index doesn't mean you have to automatically break out the dice and start shooting at each other, nor does it mean your players automatically lose their cargo and their shirts to some Jean-LaFitte-Wannabe. It can instead be a great opportunity for role-playing:

This 100t Scout pirate is Joe, the "King" of Dentus, a harmless eccentric who will demand Cr10 for the right to approach "his" world; if you agree to pay, he directs you to an office at the starport where the official will chuckle and tell you not to worry about the "fee". The locals will not take it kindly if you fire on him, especially since they've made sure his missiles have no warheads.

This 400t pirate is a police cruiser that's been running a customs scam for weeks, charging Cr500 for "customs inspections" and seizing an occasional crate of cargo for pretended "technical violations", but there's not a blessed thing this TL-5 world can do about it, and their complaints to the Imperial authorities in a neighboring system have - for some strange reason - been ignored.

This 800t pirate is a Broadsword-class merc cruiser supporting its troops by seizing any inbound arms shipments, to the dismay of the local government which has no craft strong enough to challenge them. if you cooperate, the Broadsword's inspection crew will give you a voucher that you can present to a representative of the "Revolutionary Committee" for compensation, but the "Committee's" a bit strapped for cash right now and is only handing out promissory notes. You can leave without inspection, provided you agree to turn around and go somewhere else rather than land.

 

[Dragoner]

An excellent example of roleplaying. Rolling a pirate on the encounter index doesn't mean you have to automatically break out the dice and start shooting at each other, nor does it mean your players automatically lose their cargo and their shirts to some Jean-LaFitte-Wannabe. It can instead be a great opportunity for role-playing:

This 100t Scout pirate is Joe, the "King" of Dentus, a harmless eccentric who will demand Cr10 for the right to approach "his" world; if you agree to pay, he directs you to an office at the starport where the official will chuckle and tell you not to worry about the "fee". The locals will not take it kindly if you fire on him, especially since they've made sure his missiles have no warheads.

This 400t pirate is a police cruiser that's been running a customs scam for weeks, charging Cr500 for "customs inspections" and seizing an occasional crate of cargo for pretended "technical violations", but there's not a blessed thing this TL-5 world can do about it, and their complaints to the Imperial authorities in a neighboring system have - for some strange reason - been ignored.

This 800t pirate is a Broadsword-class merc cruiser supporting its troops by seizing any inbound arms shipments, to the dismay of the local government which has no craft strong enough to challenge them. if you cooperate, the Broadsword's inspection crew will give you a voucher that you can present to a representative of the "Revolutionary Committee" for compensation, but the "Committee's" a bit strapped for cash right now and is only handing out promissory notes. You can leave without inspection, provided you agree to turn around and go somewhere else rather than land.

Yes, there is a huge amount of room for roleplaying the situation.

Players complaining of extortion and the bureaucrat responds: "I know there is a IN CruRon in the next system, but you have to go to the duchy capitol 7 parsecs away and file a form D-Zed 778, to get them to even send a lowly Gazelle."

Also one could have it the other way around, like in the merchant states of Italy hiring mercenaries to supplement the escorts on their goods train, the players see an ad in the local 'pape:

"Wanted: crew for a man-at-arms Gazelle, escorting a merchant convoy."

Welcome to the maelstrom, esp if one finds that the Gazelle may not be so excellent in combat facing a privateer Chameleon or a hornet's nest of Dragonflies...

 

[Gray Pennell]

Or if the captain of the Gazelle is a political appointee and doesn't know what he is doing or even more fun turns pirate himself. So you dont want to join us out the airlock you go.

 

[atpollard]

Pirates historically ply waters/space that are on wealthy lanes on the edge of patroled space at key choke points with safe havens near by. Lets take these one at a time. Wealthy lanes in the case of the West Indies this was the Spanish Gold, Rum and Slave routes in Eest Indies it was spice and other goods. The West Indies though patrolled by fleets was large and the number of shipments were high so their were often not enough ships to convoy every shipment or to guard every ship. The Spanish had gold fleets to try and reduce damage. The East India had the East India company running convoys. Pirates would pick off the stragglers and the ships not assigned to the convoys. Choke points are also key. In West Indies there are only about 4 straights to get out of the Caribbean Sea, East India the Malacca Straight was a major choke point along with the horn of Africa, and the Straights of Gibraltar. At everyone of this choke points at one time or another there have been pirate havens: Barbarie Coast, Madagascar, The Bahamas, and if my memory is correct Medan for Malacca straights. Each of these were home to dozes of pirates led by one or more Pirate Princes.

There are so many things wrong in that paragraph ranging from history to geography to even spelling that it would take multiple posts to correct them all.

So let’s try some logic, fact and spelling checking:

“Pirates historically ply waters/space that are”:
1a. “on wealthy lanes”;
1b. “West Indies this was the Spanish Gold, Rum and Slave routes”
1c. “Eest Indies it was spice and other goods”

Would anyone argue that pirates raid poor lanes or areas with little to no traffic?
I think not. (+1 point for self-evident logic)

The Spanish, Dutch, British, French, Swedes and Danes all grew sugar in the Caribbean (West Indies) to manufacture Rum using Native American and African slave labor, and Rum was accepted in Europe as an equivalent to payment in gold. So to define wealthy lanes in the West Indies as Gold, Rum and Slave routes seems completely valid. (+1 point for facts)

The trade from Southeast Asia (East Indies) included spices (Nutmeg, Cloves and Mace), coffee and tea from the islands; cinnamon and pearls from Ceylon; silk, porcelain and tea from China; and textiles, pepper and opium from India. Spices were far and away the most profitable cargo. So to define wealthy lanes in the East Indies as spice and other goods seems completely valid. (+1 point for facts)

“Eest” = East (-1 point for typo)

So far, +3 for facts and –1 for spelling.
I have no time to check the rest, but so far I can find nothing wrong with Gray Pennell's post that a spell checker would not fix.

[Edited for increased civility.]

 

[Omnivore]

I have no time to check the rest, but so far Whipsnade’s empty dismissal seems completely unfounded.

I agree. The original post may not have been the easiest to read nor the most complete coverage of the subject, but to judge by those criteria, the majority of posts would deserve empty dismissal.

------------------------
Now to the main subject;

In MTU, financiers require armament and sufficient gunner crew members for same for any ship financing whose business plan proposes to call at any ports where encounter rules allow possibility of a pirate encounter. Anti-hijack software is also a requirement. Worlds which do not want to permit armed civilian ships within 100D may well have to provide high ports beyond the limit or suffer some loss of tonnage for shipping. That, of course, depends upon the area. Another approach used is to require local pilots for ship landing (harbor pilots) and installation of lock-down mechanisms on a ship's weaponry. This would normally occur during a customs inspection at the 100D limit.

 

[far-trader]

I agree. The original post may not have been the easiest to read nor the most complete coverage of the subject, but to judge by those criteria, the majority of posts would deserve empty dismissal.

On that note...

Enough.

You're innocent here Omnivore but your thoughts above make an excellent lesson point and I thank you for the opportunity.

NO POST IS DESERVING OF EMPTY DISMISSAL.

Perhaps with the caveat that I obviously mean posts given in honest sharing of ideas and discussion, even debate.

This thread has enough dismissiveness and borderline (or over) personal attacks and trolling. Warnings (yes plural) have been issued. More and/or stiffer may yet fall. The red bold type is a warning in itself. It says I've had enough button pushing from some so everyone is on notice because of it and I'm in no mood to be forgiving and lenient in the next while. I don't want to censor, temp ban, thread lock, or play the heavy but this is supposed to be a place for people who share a love of the game to exchange thoughts on it. There's no need for the antisocial behavior.

SHAPE UP!

If you find it too hard to be civil, be quiet or find somewhere else to vent.

EDIT: P.S. While I'm at it everyone in this thread can review their posts above whether they think they've crossed the line or not and edit them to more civility if needed. It should be an interesting exercise if nothing else.

 

[Carlobrand]

Another approach used is to require local pilots for ship landing (harbor pilots) and installation of lock-down mechanisms on a ship's weaponry. This would normally occur during a customs inspection at the 100D limit.

Harbor pilots, an excellent idea for the A/B/C starports; all it needs is a launch or gig and a couple of people hired for the job. Even the D-types might keep an enclosed air/raft available to loft a part-timer into orbit to rendezvous with the inbound ship, if they're serious about it - though I presume we're talking some rather high law levels, the kind of folk who might send out an armed party if you decided to land in the outback for a little fishing instead of landing at the starport.

E-starports, most likely not: if that's all you have for a starport, you probably don't know a starship's arrived until it actually lands. However, there's nothing stopping the local sheriff from sauntering out after they've landed and requiring the players to let him put padlocks on their turret safeties until they're ready to leave.

 

[Whipsnade]

Yes, there is a huge amount of room for roleplaying the situation.

Which, of course, is why piracy exists in the OTU.

What's more, the ship-focused examples posted by yourself, Carlobrand, and Omnivore only scratch the surface. Historically, pirates raided ashore more often than they took ships. Sir Henry Morgan, arguably the most successful pirate of the Golden Age, may have led flotillas which took ships but never actually took a ship himself. Instead, Morgan earned his reputation - and the loot he used to purchase a pardon, knighthood, and governorship - by raiding Spanish settlements.

LBB:6 gave us the rest of the system beyond the main world, it's port, and it's 100D limit and a canny GM shouldn't let that go to waste.

 

[rancke]

A GM who is intellectually honest provides their players with better reasons than "Because I say so..." or "It's kewl..."

The reason I use pirates in my TU despite my many reservations about them is precisely because they're cool.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Harbor pilots, an excellent idea for the A/B/C starports; all it needs is a launch or gig and a couple of people hired for the job. Even the D-types might keep an enclosed air/raft available to loft a part-timer into orbit to rendezvous with the inbound ship, if they're serious about it - though I presume we're talking some rather high law levels, the kind of folk who might send out an armed party if you decided to land in the outback for a little fishing instead of landing at the starport.

One thing to keep in mind is that while the game tables are tied to starport types, protection against piracy would actually be tied to local planetary defenses (And to visiting naval patrols, but I'm leaving them aside). There's some correlation, of course, but a high-population world is going to be an unhealthy environment for a pirate even if the starport is class C.


Hans