How realistic is it for civilian ships to be allowed heavy weaponry for "self defense"?
Civvies with starship guns?
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Depends on the time and place. No one thought twice about it during the Age of Sail.
For Classic Era Traveller it is probably best not to think about it too much. It's a lot more realistic than a one parsec thick galaxy, anyway.
Hans
For frontier trading ships, it's a defense against piracy.
D
DFW
Guest
About as realistic as merchants carrying cannons in the 17th-19th centuries...
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Nukes and spinals are military-only. Smaller stuff is fine.
FWIW I think most civilian ships, in particular around safer Imperial areas (Core, for instance) go about weaponless. If you run a luxury passenger transport operating in a 10-parsec area around Sylea, arming the vessel with sandcasters and triple laser turrets might raise a few eyebrows and even offend the sensibilities of some of your posh clients. It would be like setting up a 50. cal machine gun on a ship during a fishing trip off the Cote D'azur.
But most Traveller games happen in frontier regions (Spinward Marches) with varying degrees of lawlessness or in "hot" or "smouldering" areas that recently saw some major fecal matter hit the fan (Solomani Rim). Small independent Travellers and traders would more likely than not prefer to go armed (both personaly and ship-wise) and moves to disarm them would be expected to be met with fierce resistance, assuming such a move could even be enforced in the first place.
I think the fact most Traveller material dealing with "here be dragons" areas or "interesting times" might have colored our perception of just how common, or uncommon, armed civilian ships truly are. Acceptable behaviours can vary a lot from place to place; and the Third Imperium is big indeed.
But most Traveller games happen in frontier regions (Spinward Marches) with varying degrees of lawlessness or in "hot" or "smouldering" areas that recently saw some major fecal matter hit the fan (Solomani Rim). Small independent Travellers and traders would more likely than not prefer to go armed (both personaly and ship-wise) and moves to disarm them would be expected to be met with fierce resistance, assuming such a move could even be enforced in the first place.
I think the fact most Traveller material dealing with "here be dragons" areas or "interesting times" might have colored our perception of just how common, or uncommon, armed civilian ships truly are. Acceptable behaviours can vary a lot from place to place; and the Third Imperium is big indeed.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
But holly canon says there can't be piracy due to the HUGE and EFFECTIVE imperial navy. So holly canon makes cannons moot.
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
Manned IIRC by naval personal or at least special trained merchant marine since there where those pesky UBoats and raiders around and not enough escorts. Not exactly the same stuff as a merchant running around armed with an all-civilian crew outside of a war
D
DFW
Guest
Correct. Also the UK developed the Q-ship since so few merchants had guns and crews. The idea was only possible because 99% of merchants weren't armed.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
It's also a waste of money.
My house rule for the subject:
"Civilian ships are constructed using LBB 2 (Starships) at TL 13 (-), but may sometimes be built using High Guard if the situation requires a special purpose (and very expensive) craft to be built at TL-14+. This also means civilian craft are not usually armored or heavily armed. Missiles are ok for civilians, but might get you extra attention from local law enforcement depending on the system's law levels and other issues. Missile racks just seem so aggressive for a Free trader you see. It’s like having a gun rack in your pickup but instead of a shotgun or hunting rifle you have an AK-47 – it’s not exactly illegal but it raises eyebrows and might scare the locals."
Now, all the other reasons of the extra cost of the gear and expendables, the cost of crew to man it, and all that are also pertinent. Plus, the cost of repairs if you get in a fight: a pirate or whatever is generally less likely to shoot up your ship (just steal the cargo, maybe make off with some passengers....possibly take the ship but that's not too common) if you don't resist his boarding you by firing up the laser turrets. Besides, within Terran Imperial borders the local patrols do a reasonably good job of keeping piracy down so the need for weapons is pretty minimal for an honest merchant who never leaves civilized space.
On the flip side, the farther you are from the borders of civilized space IMTU, the more likely you will need weapons. And once you head back into civilized space there isn't any need to dismount and hide them so long as you are just a (semi) honest Free Trader type working the fringes the regular long liners don't go to in order to make a buck off the colonists who need laser carbines and food to hold off the barbarian hordes.
Naturally the players are more likely to fit into the latter group than the former so they would be foolish indeed to not add some lasers and sand casters to their Frontier Trader or Scout.
"Civilian ships are constructed using LBB 2 (Starships) at TL 13 (-), but may sometimes be built using High Guard if the situation requires a special purpose (and very expensive) craft to be built at TL-14+. This also means civilian craft are not usually armored or heavily armed. Missiles are ok for civilians, but might get you extra attention from local law enforcement depending on the system's law levels and other issues. Missile racks just seem so aggressive for a Free trader you see. It’s like having a gun rack in your pickup but instead of a shotgun or hunting rifle you have an AK-47 – it’s not exactly illegal but it raises eyebrows and might scare the locals."
Now, all the other reasons of the extra cost of the gear and expendables, the cost of crew to man it, and all that are also pertinent. Plus, the cost of repairs if you get in a fight: a pirate or whatever is generally less likely to shoot up your ship (just steal the cargo, maybe make off with some passengers....possibly take the ship but that's not too common) if you don't resist his boarding you by firing up the laser turrets. Besides, within Terran Imperial borders the local patrols do a reasonably good job of keeping piracy down so the need for weapons is pretty minimal for an honest merchant who never leaves civilized space.
On the flip side, the farther you are from the borders of civilized space IMTU, the more likely you will need weapons. And once you head back into civilized space there isn't any need to dismount and hide them so long as you are just a (semi) honest Free Trader type working the fringes the regular long liners don't go to in order to make a buck off the colonists who need laser carbines and food to hold off the barbarian hordes.
Naturally the players are more likely to fit into the latter group than the former so they would be foolish indeed to not add some lasers and sand casters to their Frontier Trader or Scout.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Lasers & sandcasters count as defensive armament (sand for anti-beam & laser for counter-missile).
If you mount a missile launcher, (yes, we allowed "mix-n-match" turrets mounting 1 laser, 1 SC, & 1 ML in a standard turret), make sure you have remote sensor drone/message/other non-weapon payload packages mounted on a decent percentage of your missile bodies (especially those loaded in the turret, hide the excess weapon payloads), and even the most strict systems won't freak out on you.
More than 1 ML, and they will ask questions!
If you mount a missile launcher, (yes, we allowed "mix-n-match" turrets mounting 1 laser, 1 SC, & 1 ML in a standard turret), make sure you have remote sensor drone/message/other non-weapon payload packages mounted on a decent percentage of your missile bodies (especially those loaded in the turret, hide the excess weapon payloads), and even the most strict systems won't freak out on you.
More than 1 ML, and they will ask questions!
D
DFW
Guest
So that "experts" (a pirated ships execs) can give a positive ID to authorities? Not bloody likely. Unless, the pirate captain looks forward to combat with SDBs...
Well before this turns into yet another "Pirates in Traveller" thread I'll explain the logic:
1) Because of the nature of jump travel a pirate with a half a brain can evade the authorities for a long time because tracking him down so long as he isn't a major problem is going to tie up a lot of resources and time. So don't cause too much trouble by blowing up ships and killing all the witnesses and maybe the local Duchy won't send it's fleet (at great expense) out after you with blood in the Commodore's eyes.
2) Shooting up a helpless merchant and killing all aboard is going guarantee more and more SDB's (they are kinda cheap to make after all) are going to be patrolling the systems, and thereby increase you chances of fighting them. Pay off the local constabulary, develop a reputation for not killing everyone on board and so on helps ensure that the locals are even more likely to just see you as an extra part of the cost of doing business. The RL historical examples even up to today are too numerous to describe here.
3) If you are known to not be a bloodthirsty butcher so long as everyone involved cooperates, then a smart merchant who is probably insured and carrying someone else's cargo anyway, is more likely to just send it across without a fight and everyone goes their way. That is also healthier for the pirate and will help him stay in business.
Using the predator-prey formulas of search and catch time as an economic model for piracy helps: the longer it takes to find your prey (because they are scattering to avoid you, more patrols around to find you, etc) the more it costs you and the better the pay off has to be. Once you find your prey if capturing it means a bloody fight that damages your ship too much (the merchant has those guns for reason after all), or the the forced boarding means losing crew or maybe getting killed yourself then the end result might be that you are out of business from one lucky roll on the critical hit table. Like a lion being kicked too hard in the head by a zebra now limping around unable to fend for himself anymore.
So the smart pirate limits his risks by: paying off the locals if possible, not getting too greedy so as to avoid annoying the Navy, builds a rep for not being Blackbeard-in-Space (more of say, the romantic highwayman type), uses intel to pick and choose his targets, and knows when to cut and run so he can stay a week or two ahead of the authorities till things cool down.
4) Finally, eventually everyone will know who you are anyway...systems are full of sensors, ships coming and going, and it all just gets worse as the heat pours in to catch you because the last 3 ships you took were slagged with all hands. And unless you have an endless supply of ships to disguise yourself with every time anyone sees you it will be shoot first and examine the scorched DNA later. SDB's will be the least of your problems - at least those guys might give you a chance to surrender while a scared Free Trader's trigger finger is going to be really itchy before he hits the jump point.
Soon the lion will find that all the zebras have missile racks and lasers strapped to their backs - even the colts. And there always tends to be more zebras than lions.
Which is pretty much the way it worked in history, too. Doesn't mean you can't have pirates in Traveller, just filling in the blanks so you better understand my logic IMTU.
Oh yes, I've always allowed mixed turrets on the ones built per LBB2 (5000 tons or less and TL13-). A typical loadout would be BMS, or BSB, or some such.
IMTU (gotta add that caveat) I also have lasers and 'casters considered to be defensive weapons - but only by the big Naval warships. They have all those bay and spinal weapons to bang on each other with and the little guns are pretty much just for local fire control to take out incoming ordnance and small craft.
But the ships down on the player level don't have lots of armor, screens, and tend to be smaller (and also use the LBB2 rules for combat) so to them lasers are offensive weapons carried for a defensive purpose. In fact, IMTU, on the player ship level pulse lasers are even considered to be more of an offensive weapon than beams, because they aren't as effective at anti-missile work and do more damage to what ship they hit. So if you carry those the locals might take more notice depending on the law level.
Missile racks are another animal because they can launch really destructive things m including armor penetrating warheads (so the cops don't like them) and nukes (if you had one, say).
It's like owning a gun. They are offensive weapons carried (by civilians anyway) for a defensive reason. A handgun (beam laser) is seen (usually) as reasonable for that purpose, but whipping an shotgun (pulse laser) out from under your coat because a mugger hassles your date might be seen by the general public as a bit of overkill - but whipping out an SMG (missile rack) is right out.
I use local law levels and common sense here, too. The players don't tend to spend much time inside the Empire (funny how that is always seen as "boring") but mainly cruise around the frontiers exploring, trading, and generally getting into all sorts of player-character trouble. So they carry weapons. And out there in the sticks a missile rack might come in handy and nobody is going to argue with you.
And it gives the players something to spend their money on: they go through missiles at a ridiculous rate sometimes when another laser or two might be credits better spent. The players always seem to forget that the other guy might have Anti-Missile and/or ECM running in his computer, too.:devil:
D
DFW
Guest
Because of the nature of the X-boat system (J4), the ID is going t spread MUCH faster than the pirate can travel. Unless the pirate is going to hang out in interstellar space it's a VERY bad gamble.
Only if X-boats go to every world at the same time all across the subsector. Which they don't...and the farther from any major hub you are the longer it takes to get the word out. And each jump to the next world takes a week...it adds up fast - the longer it takes to get the report on the next X-boat, the farther away (timewise) the pirate is.
This is why its an "Age of Sail" game - communications can take so long to get anywhere that there is greater reliance on individual initiative on the subsector and planetary governments to act in the best interests of the whole. You might run out after some pirate, spend 3 months trying to find him, then come back home only to find he now has a pardon (and maybe letter of marque to boot) from the new government that held elections 1 month after you left port.
But its a big universe so there's room for the way anyone wants to play in it. IMTU I like space pirates, bug-eyed monsters, and the hero to have the scientist's daughter on one arm with a blaster (well, gauss pistol, anyway) in the other. So I have piracy and pirate hunters and it all fairly reeks of Erroll Flynn and the Black Swan sometimes till I'm bored with that and move the game to another part of the universe for a while. IMTU there is no Imperium and the X-Boats come in different flavors depending on how fast you want it there. There is also heavier reliance on private messengers and mail carriers because space where the players live tends to be wild n' wooly, and the Megacorps run things. So long as John Company can keep the tea n' silks moving the Empire doesn't interfere. So, the mail can be awfully spotty sometimes.
But, this does mean there is plenty of opportunity for an enterprising sort to go out an play privateer for a megacorp if he wants to hunt pirates. But it requires a wee more than just jumping around at random or waiting for the next X-boat: there are palms to be greased, weasels to squeeze, starports to search, bait to be set, governors to toady...all good fun for roleplaying.
D
DFW
Guest
Sure, you could set up your TU like that if you wanted and ignore the financial MegaCorps. You're the GM.
