General Citizenship
- Thread starter gchuck
- Start date
Follow up qqq.
Do you allow dual/triple citizenship in your games?
I've got a bunch of NPC's who more often than not, like to push the 'buttons' on the PC's.
Follow up qqq.
Do you allow dual/triple citizenship in your games?
I've got a bunch of NPC's who more often than not, like to push the 'buttons' on the PC's.
So, understanding that my campaign(s) are only loosely bound by canon and I'm still using Paranoia Press and Judges Guild versions of old sectors...
I don't see there being any trouble exactly with multiple citizenships, but I would suggest that (for example) that most places don't really care or it simply doesn't have much of an effect unless you have diplomatic credentials. I also expect that the idea of multiple citizenships is already kinda baked into the setting given the notions of Imperial law and local law, at the XT line in starports, etc. I'd argue that Imperial citizenship is different from citizenship on any particular planet, this is probably especially true for planets/systems with a native (esp. non-human) population.
D.
Kind of what I was thinking.
For me, this is more or less a 'color' item. Got a bunch of NPC clones who've joined the IISS, ostensibly during the rebellion period. Comm lag, rebellion, creative message routing, and war, means they're just getting their documents mid to late 1130.
Commander Truestar
SOC-13
As far as I saw, in the 1980's, service in the US Military does "Not" grant citizenship.
Yes, it looks great while going through the process of seeking Citizenship......but no. It did not mean you got Citizenship.
There were several citizens of other countries in various of the units I was part of.
None of them, so far as I know, became a US citizen after their first hitch
Maybe I'm just misinformed, or it's a 'positive' if they indeed seek citizenship.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
It's probably easier if you're Irish.
Quite a number of Gurkhas are now British.
Plus, it's a perk if you enlist in the current Russian military.
Quite a number of Gurkhas are now British.
Plus, it's a perk if you enlist in the current Russian military.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
The US has had differing laws on this subject over the years.
Until the early 1990s Philippine citizens could serve in the USN (and probably in the other services) but they were specifically banned from using that service to gain US citizenship... their time also did not count towards the "residency" requirements for naturalization... this was according to a treaty between the US and the Philippines that set aside quotas allowing Filipinos to serve (they wanted these trained people to come back home afterwards) - something not granted any other nationality.
Other nationalities could serve if they were sponsored by a US citizen - I worked with an Irish citizen in the USMC in the mid-late 1980s - his US citizen brother had sponsored him. He could use his service time for the residency requirement, but would not be automatically granted citizenship via service.
For at least the last 20 years, however, military service does grant nearly automatic citizenship... but it MUST be applied for after at least 1 year on active duty (5 years "proof of good character" including the service period is required, except that those serving during designated "hostilities" periods need only the 1 year of active service to fulfill the "residency" and "proof of good character" requirement).
That said, it would be up to how the Ref set up the Imperium's regs in his game... and it could vary according to the policies of sector/subsector Dukes etc.
Until the early 1990s Philippine citizens could serve in the USN (and probably in the other services) but they were specifically banned from using that service to gain US citizenship... their time also did not count towards the "residency" requirements for naturalization... this was according to a treaty between the US and the Philippines that set aside quotas allowing Filipinos to serve (they wanted these trained people to come back home afterwards) - something not granted any other nationality.
Other nationalities could serve if they were sponsored by a US citizen - I worked with an Irish citizen in the USMC in the mid-late 1980s - his US citizen brother had sponsored him. He could use his service time for the residency requirement, but would not be automatically granted citizenship via service.
For at least the last 20 years, however, military service does grant nearly automatic citizenship... but it MUST be applied for after at least 1 year on active duty (5 years "proof of good character" including the service period is required, except that those serving during designated "hostilities" periods need only the 1 year of active service to fulfill the "residency" and "proof of good character" requirement).
That said, it would be up to how the Ref set up the Imperium's regs in his game... and it could vary according to the policies of sector/subsector Dukes etc.
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I don't believe there's a hard, canon supported, answer to the OP question, and I don't know about current countries granting citizenship to those serving in their armies (usually you need the citizenship to serve, but there are exceptions).
To give na example, AFAIK, serving in the Légion Étrangére does not grant you automatically the French nationality (but being wounded while serving does (Français par le sang versé). Not sure about the Spanish legion...
OTOH, many see the 3I more close in many senses to the Roman Imperium than to current countries. If so, the Auxilia of the Roman Imperium were given citizenship after their service to Rome (IIRc, afer 16 years of service)...
To give na example, AFAIK, serving in the Légion Étrangére does not grant you automatically the French nationality (but being wounded while serving does (Français par le sang versé). Not sure about the Spanish legion...
OTOH, many see the 3I more close in many senses to the Roman Imperium than to current countries. If so, the Auxilia of the Roman Imperium were given citizenship after their service to Rome (IIRc, afer 16 years of service)...
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
As far as I know the Imperium doesn't have "citizens", it's basically a international organisation with self-ruling member worlds. Something like the EU currently.
The Imperium isn't a nation or a democracy, it wouldn't have citizens, but subjects.
At a guess a character would be, say, a citizen of Regina and therefore a subject of His Imperial Majesty. So, to gain permanent residency in the Imperium you would presumably go to a member world and apply for citizenship of that world.
Just as today you can't become a citizen of the EU, but of France or Germany.
OK, the Imperium fancies calling its subject "citizens" and you can be a direct vassal of the Emperor euphemistically called a "citizen".
The Imperium isn't a nation or a democracy, it wouldn't have citizens, but subjects.
At a guess a character would be, say, a citizen of Regina and therefore a subject of His Imperial Majesty. So, to gain permanent residency in the Imperium you would presumably go to a member world and apply for citizenship of that world.
Just as today you can't become a citizen of the EU, but of France or Germany.
OK, the Imperium fancies calling its subject "citizens" and you can be a direct vassal of the Emperor euphemistically called a "citizen".
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According the much paraphrased sentence of Cleon I about "every sentient living being in the Imperium is an Imperial Citizen, and so a protected being" (quoted from memory, so apologies if not exact), you don't need any paper, not to be native or naturalized, just being "a sentient living being in the Third Imperium". And this would include even those just crossing it...
Of course, this would make the OP moot, aas if you¡re serving on an imperial ship (just to give you an example) you're in the Imperium, so, if you're a sentient living being, you already are Imperial Citizen...
Just to clarify: you are EU citizen, if you have any EU country citizenship. What you cannot is to be a direct EU citizen,without being citizen of one of its countries, but if you gain any (or your country enters EU) you become an EU citizen too.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Broaden this principle out to include the 11,000+ worlds of the Third Imperium (early 1100s) and it becomes a case of "you're an Imperial" if you're a citizen of any world within the borders of the Third Imperium. In a very feudal/federalist sense, you're a citizen of your (imperial) world and THAT citizenship is what confers upon you citizenship to the the Third Imperium entire.
So it's a bottom up direction of flow, rather than a top down system (if that makes sense).
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
As far as I recall that refers to clones and perhaps androids, not foreigners.
If everyone is a citizen, that has no meaning.
This limits Imperial "citizen"ship to citizens of member worlds, and direct vassals.
Well, the EU want to pretend to be a democracy, so calls its inhabitants "citizens". The important part is that the member states decides what a citizen is, and how to become one.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Exactly.
This is different from the US system where you're a citizen of the United States and then the states and territories are under that umbrella.
The EU system goes in the other direction.
So to borrow from and invert the US system, if you're a Citizen of Colorado (as determined by the state of Colorado), that then also makes you a citizen of the United States. That way, the citizenship "flow" happens from the state level (first) up to the federal level (second) ... rather than the reverse of being a being a federal citizen first (all 50 states and territories) with the state level simply along for the ride.
This is why I was saying that the easier way to think about it is that it's a bottom up system in the EU (nation then union), versus a top down system in the US (federal good in all states and territories).
Note that this bottom up structure is probably the better foundational system for as sprawling and diverse a place as the Third Imperium, where jump lag in communications will necessarily force a devolution of a wide variety of governing powers and functions onto local stellar system authorities. That way, each world/star system is autonomus but also gets a representative of the Emperor (their imperial nobles) to tie them into the broader interstellar web of politics, commerce and military alliances that make up the Third Imperium. Just the sheer scale and distances involved in the size and scope of the Third Imperium forces this kind of decentralized devolution of powers that would need to be "controlled" through layers of hierarchy (nobles) and bureaucracy (civil service) in order to keep the whole party going without collapsing under its own weight.
Imagine if every single application for citizenship on every single world throughout the Third Imperium needed to be dispatched to Capital/Core for some "Bureaucrat AI" bot to approve before a notice could be sent back to wherever the application had come from. That kind of singular centralization would be SHEER MADNESS at the scale of the Third Imperium in the early 1100s ... especially since the jump lag from the outer fringes would likely make the applications obsolete before they can be processed, simply due to the jump lag delays involved in transit.
I oppened another thread to discuss about Imperial Citizenry in general
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
As Heinlein mentions (in other articles), power and responsibility, or at least some perquisites gained or defended.
As regards the Roman Legions and their auxiliaries, it's pretty complex and layered.
The Lodge Act in the 1950's allowed for recruitment of foreign nationals into US Service, with guaranteed citizenship after 5 years faithful service. It was primarily targeted at Eastern Europeans in order to provide infiltration forces in case of a conflict with the Warsaw Pact. A number of early US Army Special Forces members came from this background.
Of note, German citizens were not eligible (both due to West Germany's NATO ties as well as the recent conflict) - however, there were "rumors" that more than a few slipped through under alternate names.
Could you please tell me where is this article I taken from?
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Sorry, T4 Milieu 0, p83-84, The Warrant of Restoration.
Also:
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Warrant_of_Restoration
