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Cheap and simple AT weapon

Todg

SOC-13
I've been looking at both the LOSAT missile and also the recent test of the SCRAM jet and am playing with the concept of a man portable KE missile for use against tanks or even BD equipped infantry. The idea is for a weapon like an RPG where a kicker charge expels a hypervelocity rocket equipped with a long rod penetrator. The rocket then quaickly accelerates up to around 2000 kps and flies unguilded to it's target.

Such a weapon could be disposable, relatively inexpensive, and be similar in effectiveness to a tank main gun without all the size, mass or complexity. Because of it's short time of flight, there would be less chance of the target moving out of the way and complex optics should be unnecessary at shorter ranges.

The current LOSAT missile masses 110 pounds. It doesn't seem unreasonable that higher tech weapons could be made small and lighter and still retain something near the efectiveness.

Thoughts and comments.
 
Extra pluses: high velocity=shorter flight time=less time for point defence to react.
Give the missle a cheap reflec coating and have your grunts start popping expensive high tech MBT.
 
Tod,

Neat concept! Hmm, what's the weight breakdown for the LOSAT and launcher by component - i.e. X much for the penetrator, Y amount for propellant, etc.? If that kind of info is available or can be inferred from the available data, perhaps we can figure out how & when the weight can be reduced?

Also, while the missle weighs in at 110 pounds, how much does the launcher weigh? How much stress does it have to withstand?

My resistance fighters on Ashton would like some of these for dealing with those pesky Star Republic of Virgil g-carriers...

John
 
Originally posted by jappel:
Neat concept! Hmm, what's the weight breakdown for the LOSAT and launcher by component - i.e. X much for the penetrator, Y amount for propellant, etc.? If that kind of info is available or can be inferred from the available data, perhaps we can figure out how & when the weight can be reduced?

Also, while the missle weighs in at 110 pounds, how much does the launcher weigh? How much stress does it have to withstand?
Well, another source says 157 pounds for the LOSAT, but I think that inclueds the launcher. Amazingly, the LOSAT has 5x the KE of the 120mm gun on the M1A2! Holy tank killer batman! IIRC, that is an 8 MJ gun, so the LOSAT is something like 40MJ and a range of over 5km. The LOSAT travels around 5000fps

Now consider that the SCRAM jet recently tested ran at around mach 7 (about 7700 fps)

My weapon isn't so ambitious, but lets do some numbers.

If the 120mm gun generates 8MJ at 5000 fps, then the penetrator masses 7kilos. If we can get that same 7700fps we only need a 3 kilo penetrator for the same 8MJ. Now we get into a more grey area. If the LOSAT has about the same muzzle velocity as the tank gun, and 5x the energy, then the projectil must mass 5x more, or 35 kilos. Even if we take the higher weight figure, that works out to be about
80 pounds of rocket propellant (and as little as 33).

Doing some real SWAG, and assuming a linear relationship, if it takes 80 pounds of fuel to send a 35 kilo projectile at 5000fps for 5 km, then a 3 kilo projectile should take about 8 pounds. The Javelin ATGM weighs in at 50 pounds, including sight, So I arbitrarily set our KE missile at around 30 pounds. Let see how that 'feels'.

We aren't rocket scientists, so we add a fudge factor both for the higher velocity (7700fps) and becase we don't think it's a linear relationship.

Because this is a LOS, short range weapon without guidance (to keep it cheap) we set the maximum effective range at at 100- meters. We add a smple telescopic sight and aknowledge that it really is most effective at 500m and takes some skill to hit at the full range. Because it's a missile, and is ejected from the tube like a javeline, the launcher is nothing more than a disposable tube - probably with crude flip up sights. The telescopic sight is a separate item so that we can add FLIR or NV if needed.

Figure .5 kilo for the kicker charge, and maybe a kilo for the tube. That makes the rocket itself 12.5 kilos, with 3 kilos being the long rod pemetrator and around 9 kilos of rocket propellant (plus .5 kilos for fins and body).

From the above, that seems reasonable for a missile that only has to go 1000 meters before the motor burns out. The round is still dangerous out to several kilometers.

Assuming fairly high acceleration, the rocket (I'll call it SLOSAT - Short range Line OF Site AntiTank) will cover the 100m effective range in under a half second. Who needs guidance. Hitting a tank sized object at 1000 meters only requires an accuracy of about 10 MOA, which is about the same as hitting a 10 inch target at 100 yards, easily done with a rifle.

So, bearing in mind all the fudge factors, and infantryman can now carry a 30 pound disposable rocket that is the equivalent of a main battle tank 120mm cannon and can kill another MBT at 1000 meters with a flight time of under a half second.

And this weapon had a payload fuel ratio of 1/3, unlike the real LOSAT where its more like 1/1. If we back the fuel requirement down to only 1/2, we lose another 3 kilos, making the weapon more like 24 pounds or less.

Just to make it nice and neat, lets call it 22, or 10 kilos.

So, a 10 kilo disposable 8MJ tank gun. What's it cost? Well, we have a carbon fiber tube, plus the cost of the long rod penetrator and the rocket fuel and the rocket body. Zero electrolics and guidance to pay for. The optical sight is separate. The best optical sniper scopes from Leupold Stevens cost around $1200, or Cr400 using my conversion factor (explained previously). The tube is probably a Cr20 credit item in quantity, which leaves the rocket. At most, I see this as a Cr500 item.

So:

SLOSAT:
TL8, Length 1.3 meters, weight 10kilos, max effective range 1000 meters, cost Cr500 in quantity. The optical sight costs Cr400, or an electronic sight (with IR or LI) may be used instead.

The SLOSAT is an extremely simple, short range antitank rocket. In place of a more conventional HEAT warhead, it uses a kinetic energy penetrator. To operate the weapon, the user attaches the optical sight and removes the safety pin. He then acquires his target and presses the trigger. On firing, a small charge expels the rocket form the launch tube out to a safe distance from the firer where the main motor ignites. The high speed propellant quickly accelerates the rocket to 2350 m/s and the rocket continues in flight until it strikes it's target and acts like any conventional KE round.

The rocket is also equipped with simple flip out iron sights that are effective out to a range of 350 meters. And can be used in an emergency or if the optical sight is not available.

The flight time of the SLOSAT over its effective range is approximately 0.5 seconds, so compensating for target movement is largely unnecessary except at extreme ranges.
 
Pretty sweet Tod, got any suggested game specs for damage and such (preferably T20/CT but whatever system is fine).
 
Originally posted by far-trader:
Pretty sweet Tod, got any suggested game specs for damage and such (preferably T20/CT but whatever system is fine).
As you know, CT is pretty weak for heavy weapons, unless you resort to striker. Treat the SLOSAT as an 8MJ tank gun and you should do fine. This weapon basically lets an TL8 infantryman kill a TL8 even with a frontal shot.

f you upgrade the weapon from a 10 kilo to a 15 kilo weapon, you basically get about a 40% gain in energy assuming the mass goes into propellant and penetrator.

Certainly, it seem adequate to destroy a trooper in battle dress. Let me look at T20 and see what I can come up with for numbers.
 
Originally posted by Corejob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Pretty sweet Tod, got any suggested game specs for damage and such (preferably T20/CT but whatever system is fine).
As you know, CT is pretty weak for heavy weapons, unless you resort to striker. Treat the SLOSAT as an 8MJ tank gun and you should do fine. This weapon basically lets an TL8 infantryman kill a TL8 even with a frontal shot.

f you upgrade the weapon from a 10 kilo to a 15 kilo weapon, you basically get about a 40% gain in energy assuming the mass goes into propellant and penetrator.

Certainly, it seem adequate to destroy a trooper in battle dress. Let me look at T20 and see what I can come up with for numbers.
</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks, yeah CT is lacking in that area as you note, I was thinking some handwave from Striker should work.

As to T20 I was thinking maybe the Light Mortar (ed.1 pg.247) might be a close enough model.
 
Nice job of number crunching and extrapolating, Tod. Definitely a plausible and viable weapon for the intended purpose.

Cracking open Striker. Let's class this as a TL8 hypervelocity 12cm KEAP round for Striker purposes. The base penetration is 27, +9 for being hypervelocity and +3 for TLs above 5, for a final penetration value of 39. This compares favorablely to a plasma A gun with penetration 44.

Still talking Striker, TL 13 BD has an armor value of 10, and TL 14 has AV 18. Yep, we're talking a dead BD trooper here.

Let's look at the example TL15 Imperial Marine grav APC shown in Striker. The weakest-armored surfaces are the mount & chassis rear, and the deck, with AV 56. OK, they shrug it off. But... drop the TL to 13 and you go from bonded superdense to superdense, halving the toughness value. A similar APC with plain superdense armor will now have a strongest armor on it's front at 36... and the SLOSAT has a good chance of taking out the APCs. Cool!

Of course, you've got to get up close and personal, lugging a fairly heavy weapon around, and hitting a moving target is going to take a crack shot and a lot of luck. But very doable.

I can easily see versions with optional target-designation capability and some rudimentary guidance built into the round. Give one guy the designator and have the rest of the squad pop off SLOSATS to overwhelm PD systems, or have a couple of designators who alternate picking targets and SLOSAT gunners who take one shot and then boogie. With the incredibly short flight times we're talking about the designators have a decent chance of escaping immediate pin-pointing, and can displace to alternate positions before lining up the next target.

Thanks for the addition to the arsenal!

John

EDIT: I neglected to mention the bore size I was using (12cm), post updated to reflect this.
 
Are you considering the M1A2 to be TL8? The M1A2 armament can't penetrate M1A2 frontal or turret armor. As I recall, one became mired in silt and the platoon commander wanted to render it unusable so they could leave it behind. Two shots from maybe 10m range failed to penetrate.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
Nice work, Tod, but if you ever mix metric and Imperial units that much again I'm gonna have to shoot you... :)
Yeah, I know. Laziness. I'm normally a very metric guy. If I do that again, I'll shoot myself.
 
Originally posted by Straybow:
Are you considering the M1A2 to be TL8? The M1A2 armament can't penetrate M1A2 frontal or turret armor. As I recall, one became mired in silt and the platoon commander wanted to render it unusable so they could leave it behind. Two shots from maybe 10m range failed to penetrate.
This is not a M1A2 gun. It's a smaller penetrator with more velocity. Only the muzzle energy is equivalent. I wouldn't care to guess what the penetration is like, but as I noted, upping the total mass to 15 kilos gains you almost 50% increase in KE.

As an aside, the LOSAT has 5x the energy of the M1A2 main gun, and is capable of destroying all existing MBTs from any attack profile.
 
A weapon like this would have a minimum range, or at least lower performance until the rocket have reached maximum velocity.

The ejection charge need to propel the rocket far enough so that the operator isn't harmed when the rocket motor ignites. From that point, the rocket motor needs some time/distance to accelerate the penetrator to its maximum velocity.

Maybe 100 meters minimum range?
 
100 m is when the thruster ignites. It would probably take another couple hundred meters to accelerate to full v.
 
Do you think it's necessary to propel the rocket 100 meters before ignition? You would lose a lot of the advantages of this system that way (short time from firing to impact). I would think that something like 30 meters would be enough.

But there are some problem anyway:
Short distance (e.g 30 m) from operator to rocket ignition - makes it easier to detect where the weapon was fired from.

Longer distance (e.g 100 m) from operator to rocket ignition - harder to spot where the operator is located but a bigger charge is needed to throw the projectile from the launcher to the ignition point in reasonable time. The larger ejection charge might make it easier to spot the launching site.


My vote is on a small ejection charge (making the weapon lighter and easier to fire from inside buildings), throwing the rocket to a distance of about 30 meters where the motor ignites.

A more advanced version could receive guidance commands (or making autonomous decisions) at this point, making final adjustments to the rocket before igniting the motor.

But now for the real Rocket Science: how far does it have to travel before reaching V(max)?
 
Do you really want to be 30m back in the direct line of thrust&#151a stream of thousand-degree gasses going at least Mach 5? :eek:

>Poof<
toast.gif


;)
 
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