Carbine

[clementk]

submitted to T20 gunbunnies:

Unless I'm mistaken about what a carbine is (which is quite possible since I've not fired a carbine) the stats seem off to me. I coulnd't find where this has been discussed on CotI before though I do remember it coming up on #Lonestar a good while ago.

It looks like Auto Pistol was copied then
1) the name changed to Carbine
2) the weight increased from 750g to 3kg
3) the number of shots increased from 15 to 20
4) the weight of a loaded magazine *drops* from 250g to 125 g

I don't see any advantage from using a carbine over an auto pistol as is nor does it seem to really model a carbine. As is there's no reason for carbines to have been invented IMO. Sure there's a 1.375 kg weight difference when going from a rifle to a carbine but going from a rifle to an auto pistol would be 3.5kg lighter, Cr50 cheaper, and far more concealable than even a carbine. For Cr110 more and 0.205kg more weight the assault rifle is a much better choice, albeit being likely more recognizable as being a military weapon.

I've no real idea on what the stats should be changed to if they need to be aside from upping the range at least. Are all carbines single fire only?

Casey

 

[far-trader]

My guess is the ranges are too long for all the handguns.

Comparing the CT versions, they are the same as in T20 except the Carbine is listed as 10 rounds for 125g instead of 15 rounds and the range of the Autopistol is half that of the Carbine.

A better conversion of the ranges from CT to T20 would give the Carbine a base range of 50m and the Autopistol a base range of 25m. Remember in d20 the max range is 10x the base range and each range increment beyond the first applies a -2 to hit. This at least would make the Carbine vs Autopistol more beliveable.

Also, depending on the referee you may be able to outfit the Carbine (rifle ammunition) with HE or AP while the Autopistol (pistol ammunition) is limited to simple ball rounds or less effective versions of HE and AP.

The book Carbine at least is semi-auto, just like the Autopistol. A full auto carbine would be an Assault Rifle I guess. A full auto pistol would of course be an SMG.

 

[jasper]

However two of guns nuts I play with mention the carbine and most of rifle ranges were too short.
I just him told to double the range.

 

[far-trader]

Well it is a range representive of fire in combat rather than on the range or hunting so that may account for the apparent reduced range of the long arms. However I don't think there's much doubt that the ranges for handguns are too long, even just doing the proper conversion from CT.

Whatever keeps your players in the game is the way to go*. Doubling the ranges for YTU should present no real problems since most encounters would be within half the first range anyway.

* within reason of course

 

[veltyen]

With a pistol 50 foot (about 15 m) is a relatively good range to plink at on a firing range. In a ducking weaving being-shot-at kind of way I wouldn't like to be shooting anyone with a pistol beyond a handful of metres.

For some reason the autopistol has a range of 45 metres, the magnum pistols from TA1 have an even longer range, getting up to the 70m mark reserved for longbarrel rifles.

From modern crime scene analysis a range of 1/10 what is listed for pistols makes a lot more sense. Upping the damage would make more sense for the heavier pistols, rather then upping the range.

That gives the autopistol a range of 4.5 metres which happens to sit nicely on a 1.5m grid.

 

[MrMorden]

A carbine is a rifle-sized weapon that fires pistol-class ammunition. Because of a longer barrel and a longer sight radius, a carbine should have higher velocity (hence slightly better damage) and better accuracy (thus a greater range increment).

Otherwise they are pretty much the same. I allow autopistol and carbine mags to be interchangable, and use the autopistol weight (the carbine ammo weight seems bugged).

For a good example of a carbine, use your google-fu on "CX4 Storm".

Good luck!

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by MrMorden:
A carbine is a rifle-sized weapon that fires pistol-class ammunition.

Not normally. The usual meaning of carbine is a short, lightweight rifle, and they tend to fire rifle ammunition. See, for example, the M4 carbine (fires 5.56x45)

 

[Border Reiver]

Before this gets too heated again please view this thread

Veltyen is right about ranges, I was a not bad combat pistol shot (a skill not generally encouraged in the British Army) but I would be lucky to hit the side of a barn at ranges greater than 20m. The only time I fired a pistol in anger it was purely in a suppresive manner (yes, my head and body were down in cover and I was rapid firing blind) so I doubt I should comment on pistols.

 

[TheBrain]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Not normally. The usual meaning of carbine is a short, lightweight rifle, and they tend to fire rifle ammunition. See, for example, the M4 carbine (fires 5.56x45)

Actually your both right, carbines can come in three flavors. The first are chambered for pistol cartdridges usually the higher end .357, .44 mag and such I think there are some good examples made by Savage Arms but I can't think of any specific models offhand. The next are rifle caliber but sport reduced barrels and or stocks to reduce weight and size. Such as the afore mentioned M4. The third fire intermediate rounds that hover between the commonly accepted bounderies of pistol and rifle cartdridges. An excellent example is the Winchester M1 carbine of WW2 fame probably the most numerously manufactured carbine in history chambered in (suprise!) .30 cal. carbine. Another is the P90 from FN chambered in 5.7mm I know FN calls it an Individual Defefence Weapon or some such, but its designed to be used by troops who may require more range and power than a pistol but not the weight and bulk of a rifle. So IDW or whatever tranlates for me as expensive speak for carbine.

 

[Border Reiver]

More semantics but I would have thought that IDW's and PDW's would be considered more as SMG's. Certainly the roles they are designed for seem to indicate this. The P90 does fire a pistol cartridge although the P90 was the first production weapon to use it, the Five-seveN pistol uses the same ammunition.

in a similar vein see also HK's MP-7 and UCP.

As far as T20's carbine is concerned there is obviously a mistake in the range, but it is based on a 70's format and definitions of weapons change, just look at the original cavalry carbines.

 

[TheBrain]

Originally posted by Border Reiver:
More semantics but I would have thought that IDW's and PDW's would be considered more as SMG's. Certainly the roles they are designed for seem to indicate this. The P90 does fire a pistol cartridge although the P90 was the first production weapon to use it, the Five-seveN pistol uses the same ammunition.

Granted but a 5.7x28mm necked cartdrige does blur the lines a bit.

 

[Border Reiver]

posted by TheBrain

Granted but a 5.7x28mm necked cartdrige does blur the lines a bit.

Absolutely, along with 4.6x30mm necked cartridges. Perhaps this is the way forward for pistol ammunitions.

 

[mike wightman]

Carbine?

This is a carbine.

So is this.

And so is this.

The latter two are the historical models given as examples in The Traveller Book and other CT versions.

 

[mike wightman]

But then again, this is a carbine too:

 

[Uncle Bob]

With the understanding that I know CT, not T20.

Carbines, as the word has been used the last couple of centuries, is a short barreled firearm firing a pistol (300 - 1000 J) or intermediate (1500-2500 J) rounds. Short barreled weapons firing full-power rifle rounds (3000-4000 J) are normally called "short rifles".

The British Army used to call a submachinegun a "machine carbine." That is also what the Germans called the first assault rifles.

The CT carbine fires a 5 g bullet at 900 m/s. At 2000 J that is about the middle of the intermediate range, between the M16 and AKM. IIRC it closely resembles a Ruger Mini 14.

 

[Anthony]

Interesting definition, which I broadly disagree with. The distinction between pistol, carbine, and rifle is not one of energy, it's one of length and design. A gun with a full stock, firing .22LR from a 20" barrel, is a rifle, not a pistol (though muzzle energy is under 1,000J). Fire the same ammunition from a gun with a 3" barrel and no stock and it's a pistol.

The distinction between assault carbine and SMG is typically that the SMG uses pistol ammunition.

 

[Crashlogic]

Actually he is not innacurate and neither are you. pistol ammunition, fired by pistol's and SMG's are held in a smaller casing with less powder, and therefore attain much lower velocities when fired through the short barrel of a pistol. The only resemblence between say a .50 calibre pistol round and .50 calibre mg round is the diamter of the slug. There is vastly more powder, and thus more energy behind the .50 cal Mg round.

A carbine is a shortened version of a rifle. The shortening typically takes place in the barrel, and thus carbines are less accurate and attain slower muzzle velocities than their bigger bretheren. At 500-1000 meters of engagemetn distance the impact is significant. At 10-150 meters of actual combat distance, carbines and rifles are largely equivalent.

Assault Rifle is usually applied to any rifle weapon capale of burst or autmotic fire. The theory is that combat effectivness is a measure of volume of fire, and not simple accuracy. Thus machine guns and assualt rifles are superior to more accurate rifles because they throw more lead at the enemy in the same amount of space.

In the world of snipers, assault rifles are of limite utility.

During WWII the carbine was issues to officers and sometimes to vehicle crewmen, as it took up less space than the rifle. However the M-! carbine was generally unpopular, and officers would carry the tommy gun, or a regular garand. Today the carbine is coming back into vouge as units seek a compromise weapon that is more maneurvaralbe that the rifles for CQB, but has beeter range potential than the smg. MOUT is currently the wave of the future in tactical and strategic planning, and the carbine is percieved as an ideal comprimise. Of course a counterpoint to this is to look at the popularity of the carbine in previous service among the trrops who use them.

Another approach, one that has been taken by some european powers, is to use wepaons with a bullpup configuration. The bullpup configureation effectively shortens the rifle, while maintaining the barrel length. Thus a bullpup AR may be shorter overall, but it is still a rifle.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Configuration and energy are important.

A shoulder fired weapon with a "rifled" barrel 50 cm or longer is certainly a rifle. A rifle with a muzzle energy of 3000-4000 J is considered a "full power" rifle as anything bigger is difficult for the average man to handle in rapid fire.

A projectile weapon without a shoulder-stock is certainly a pistol.

Weapons named carbine are shoulder-fired weapons, with short (less than 50 cm) barrels usually using less-than-full-power ammo. Although the SMLE "Jungle Carbine" fired full power 7.7mm ammunition, weapons this powerful are normally considered to be Short Rifles, not carbines.

So a carbine is a shoulder fired weapon with a short barrel, less than 50 cm, usually firing reduced power cartridges. At TL 5-8 that means less than 2500 J muzzle energy. (2500 J is about what a 30-30 generates)

 

[Border Reiver]

Sorry those definitions seem a little random to me.

Barrel length of 50cm? Seems that is just enough to allow the M16 into rifle classification (508mm) yet the AR18 doesn't make the cut.

And then a requirement of "full power" ammo? 5.56mm NATO ammo falls well short of this definition. Does this mean none can be classed as a rifle? Perhaps the Armalon PR isn't a rifle.

A carbine as defined by its history and entymology is a short rifle. The SMLE Jungle Carbine is a carbine. The K98 is a carbine as it is a shortened version of the G98.

Such definitions as carbine, smg, assault rifle are becoming more and more obsolete as the roles of firearms evolve.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Border Reiver:
Sorry those definitions seem a little random to me.

The RL usage is inconsistent; in reality it's a carbine if the manufacturer says it's a carbine. I'm sure there are weapons called carbines with longer barrels than weapons that are called rifles. Still, on the whole a carbine will have a shorter barrel than a rifle, and 500mm is not a terrible breakpoint.

I disagree with the requirement for 'full power' ammo, however, so I won't comment on it. The only distinction I've seen like that is that an automatic weapon firing 7.62NATO is a 'battle rifle', and one firing 5.56NATO is an 'assault rifle'.