Canon Pocket Empires
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EvilDrGanymede
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Aren't they just small clumps of worlds that have formed their own political unit outside (or in some cases within) the Imperium's borders?
mad13142000
SOC-13
Typically outside the Imperium. The T4 book dealt with how at the founding of the 3rd Imperium, Mileu 0, the newly minted Empire spent years adsorbing 'pocket empires' - those small states that survived on their own during the long night. They ranged in size, gov't and tech too.
The T4 book is almost a separate game - it provides rules for creation of a dynasty, worlds and their economic ties within the empire, and even military units and conquest of other systems. Based on yearly turns, you have to allocate production to various tasks - like increasing infrastructure or upping tech levels in addition to 'purchasing' things like military units. Much like how a real gov't works...
You should get Hans in here - he was a playtester for the T4 book...
-MADDog
The T4 book is almost a separate game - it provides rules for creation of a dynasty, worlds and their economic ties within the empire, and even military units and conquest of other systems. Based on yearly turns, you have to allocate production to various tasks - like increasing infrastructure or upping tech levels in addition to 'purchasing' things like military units. Much like how a real gov't works...
You should get Hans in here - he was a playtester for the T4 book...
-MADDog
IMTU, Pocket Empires are also instead of the OTU term: "Client State" for I don't believe that you can enclose any number of worlds, save bonded by a common culture, economic and political system. While the 3I does this task magnificiently there are going to be Interstellar Reminents that will cling bitterly to the old ways...hence, the superior term of: "Pocket Empire", as interstellar polity sounds too formal until we reach Hard Times...
...and given the above constantly lobbying cannon to change.
...and given the above constantly lobbying cannon to change.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
My definition (which I believe is correct) is this: a Pocket Empire is an unaligned interstellar polity. By implication they are comparatively small. Once they hit a sector in size they aren't "pocket" any more.
So, for example, in the Spinward Marches at 1110, the Federation of Arden is a Pocket Empire, but the Darrian Confederation is not. This is because, while both are interstellar polities, only the Federation is unaligned. The Darrian Confederation is aligned with the Imperium, and therefore is called a Client State.
So, for example, in the Spinward Marches at 1110, the Federation of Arden is a Pocket Empire, but the Darrian Confederation is not. This is because, while both are interstellar polities, only the Federation is unaligned. The Darrian Confederation is aligned with the Imperium, and therefore is called a Client State.
Agreed. Alignement with the major power would be a decisive factor whether an interstellar entity is a client state or pocket empire.
However, what I would want to forsee is more tension within the client state, as the definition implies a kind of Finlandization has taken place. Whereas, the Darrians are actively neutral save in the times of trouble, when they side with the Imperium.
Other than accepting Imperial Credits and signing a Mutual Aid package, I think the Darrians are cautious of the Imperium especially when they saw what happened to their Surret "grandparents"...
However, what I would want to forsee is more tension within the client state, as the definition implies a kind of Finlandization has taken place. Whereas, the Darrians are actively neutral save in the times of trouble, when they side with the Imperium.
Other than accepting Imperial Credits and signing a Mutual Aid package, I think the Darrians are cautious of the Imperium especially when they saw what happened to their Surret "grandparents"...
daryen
SOC-14 1K
The Darrians slipped down the slope gradually. I think that for most of their history, they were a true pocket empire, even though they were allied with the Imperium. Possibly as late as the Fourth Frontier War.
However, by the time of CT, they were firmly entrenched as a true client state, to the point where much of the military and "consumer" advanced tech came from the Imperium.
By the time of TNE, the Darrians have been completely coopted by the Regency. The Darrians don't even make their own ships anymore. Almost all major industrial production (especially military) is completely done for them by the Regency.
A pocket empire is any empire that is A)not considered worthy to be regarded as an equal by those snobs at the Imperial Court; B)well enough established to force the Imperium to wait before absorbing it; and C)Politically independant. The Third Imperium looks on "pocket empires" the way the First Imperium looked on Terra.
Isn't it really a physical description and significantly different than a client state.
A client state and pocket empire could be one in the same. IF the pocket empire is aligned with a larger govt. A pocket empire is also a slang, since we tend not to hear of pocket republics.
A pocket empire is an stellar govt that is less than 1 sector in physical size.
A client state is an stellar govt alligned with a larger govt.
Savage
A client state and pocket empire could be one in the same. IF the pocket empire is aligned with a larger govt. A pocket empire is also a slang, since we tend not to hear of pocket republics.
A pocket empire is an stellar govt that is less than 1 sector in physical size.
A client state is an stellar govt alligned with a larger govt.
Savage
kafka47 wrote:
"... I think the Darrians are cautious of the Imperium especially when they saw what happened to their Surret "grandparents"..."
Mr. Kafka47,
Huh? The Confederation's population is descended from Darrian minor race humans, the members of a Long Night Solomani-Turkic corporation's 'bolt hole' colony mission, and several Aslan mercenary forces. Where does the Suerrat figure in?
Sincerely,
Larsen
"... I think the Darrians are cautious of the Imperium especially when they saw what happened to their Surret "grandparents"..."
Mr. Kafka47,
Huh? The Confederation's population is descended from Darrian minor race humans, the members of a Long Night Solomani-Turkic corporation's 'bolt hole' colony mission, and several Aslan mercenary forces. Where does the Suerrat figure in?
Sincerely,
Larsen
Gents,
IMTU, the term 'Pocket Empire' refers to a *multi-system* polity which may or may not be politically aligned with any of the 'Big Five'; the Zhodani Consulate, Third Imperium, Solomani Confederation, Hive Federation, and 2000 Worlds. (The fractious nature of Aslan and Vargr societies preclude any idea of a unitary state within those regions of Charted Space they control. Most Aslan and Vargr polities are 'pocket empires'. Some may even be aligned with one of the 'Big Five' and are therefore 'client states'.)
'Client State' refers specifically to any polity that is aligned with a larger entity, regardless of size. A client state can be a pocket empire, a single system, or a single nation on a balkanized world.
The Darrian Confederation, Sword Worlds Confederation, Border Worlds Confederation, and Federation of Arden are all pocket empires. Of the four, only Arden is not a client state.
Thus, 'pocket empire' is an astrographic description and 'client state' is a political description. The two labels are not mutually exclusive.
Sincerely,
Larsen
IMTU, the term 'Pocket Empire' refers to a *multi-system* polity which may or may not be politically aligned with any of the 'Big Five'; the Zhodani Consulate, Third Imperium, Solomani Confederation, Hive Federation, and 2000 Worlds. (The fractious nature of Aslan and Vargr societies preclude any idea of a unitary state within those regions of Charted Space they control. Most Aslan and Vargr polities are 'pocket empires'. Some may even be aligned with one of the 'Big Five' and are therefore 'client states'.)
'Client State' refers specifically to any polity that is aligned with a larger entity, regardless of size. A client state can be a pocket empire, a single system, or a single nation on a balkanized world.
The Darrian Confederation, Sword Worlds Confederation, Border Worlds Confederation, and Federation of Arden are all pocket empires. Of the four, only Arden is not a client state.
Thus, 'pocket empire' is an astrographic description and 'client state' is a political description. The two labels are not mutually exclusive.
Sincerely,
Larsen
Well, the Imperium despite lofty words about the rights of the citizens. It often has given short thrift to the minor races within its borders. Whilst, not as biligerent or blatant as the Solomani Confederation. The Imperium remains a compromise between the Vilani noble ideal and Solomani Capital.
The Suerrat were picked upon when they tried to expand and break out of the stricture of the Vilani-Solomani pact.
Note: This post was written without consulatation to GT: Humaniti, rather, relying upon other canon sources and the forbidden canon of DGP.
kafka47 wrote:
"Note: This post was written without consulatation to GT: Humaniti, rather, relying upon other canon sources and the forbidden canon of DGP."
Mr. Kafka47,
AFAIK, the Suerrat aren't in GT:Humaniti.
Also, you didn't bother to answer my question, although I did like all the references to the Imperium being a power sharing agreement between Solomani and Vilani. I'll pose my question again:
What do the Suerrat; a minor human in race in the Ilelish Sector, have to do with the Darrian Confederation,; a pocket empire in the Spinward Marches Sector?
Sincerely,
Larsen
"Note: This post was written without consulatation to GT: Humaniti, rather, relying upon other canon sources and the forbidden canon of DGP."
Mr. Kafka47,
AFAIK, the Suerrat aren't in GT:Humaniti.
Also, you didn't bother to answer my question, although I did like all the references to the Imperium being a power sharing agreement between Solomani and Vilani. I'll pose my question again:
What do the Suerrat; a minor human in race in the Ilelish Sector, have to do with the Darrian Confederation,; a pocket empire in the Spinward Marches Sector?
Sincerely,
Larsen
I'm pretty sure he did answer your question (albeit obliquely) -- as long as the Darrians remain at least nominally independent of the Imperium they can protect/maintain their cultural identity, but once they join up with the Imperium as member-worlds there's very little they could do to keep the Imperium (and its Vilani-Solomani dominant culture) from stomping on them like it did to the Suerrat (witness the results of the Ilelish Revolt). I don't think he meant to imply any relationship between the Darrians and the Suerrat beyond the fact that they're both culturally distinct MHRs in/near Imperial territory.
T. Foster wrote:
"I don't think he meant to imply any relationship between the Darrians and the Suerrat beyond the fact that they're both culturally distinct MHRs in/near Imperial territory."
Mr. Foster,
Ah! Thank you! The ol' weary wetware hasn't been quite up to snuff these last few days.
I always liked that little phrase used to describe the Imperium's show of force at Ilelish after the Revolt collapsed; 'scrubbed the equatorial regions free of life'. Never fails to bring a shudder.
IIRC, Mr. Brian Vaughan on the TML has been working on a Suerrat-Ilelish Revolt manuscript of sorts. It will 'written' by the rebels themselves, describing their goals, ideals, mistakes, and so forth. Having always enjoyed Mr. Vaughan's posts to the List, I am patiently waiting to read the results of his latest project.
Sincerely,
Larsen
"I don't think he meant to imply any relationship between the Darrians and the Suerrat beyond the fact that they're both culturally distinct MHRs in/near Imperial territory."
Mr. Foster,
Ah! Thank you! The ol' weary wetware hasn't been quite up to snuff these last few days.
I always liked that little phrase used to describe the Imperium's show of force at Ilelish after the Revolt collapsed; 'scrubbed the equatorial regions free of life'. Never fails to bring a shudder.
IIRC, Mr. Brian Vaughan on the TML has been working on a Suerrat-Ilelish Revolt manuscript of sorts. It will 'written' by the rebels themselves, describing their goals, ideals, mistakes, and so forth. Having always enjoyed Mr. Vaughan's posts to the List, I am patiently waiting to read the results of his latest project.
Sincerely,
Larsen
The Imperium seem to care little for cultural independence, witness the half dozen areas inside the Imperium each with its own cultural identity (Including, incidentally, Ilelish). The Imperium didn't stomp on the Suerrat because they wanted to maintain their cultural independence but because they wanted a greater level of autonomy and rebelled when they didn't get it.
On a side note, the despoilation of Ilelish was done 800 years ago by an Emperor who is dead now. For the last 5 centuries the Imperium hasn't expanded by force and there is at least one system that has been allowed to leave the Imperium in the last couple of centuries (Ucella). Not counting the systems the Imperium were forced to relinquish by the Zhodani.
I don't think the Darrians has all that much to worry about.
Hans
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