Building Buildings

[BackworldTraveller]

I was looking at Canary Wharf Tower (One Canada Square)
Build in 1991 for 624 million GBP (Approx 1134 million USD depending upon exact date)

This is 50 floors of 57mx57m square levels. Using the cheapest hull building blocks (No artificial gravity option), the cost of the shell is MCr902 using Mongoose High Guard.
The building has Water, sewerage and Electricity Distribution and Back-Up Power Generators, etc. to fit. MCr200 for these seems high - but at Cr125 per square metre (Cr562/d Ton) of internal space this isn't so bad. This is USD277k per dton of space on the utilities floors for the 722 dTons used. (Not sure what high-guard categories would apply though - Diesel generators aren't available as power sources for ships and life support gets lumped into staterooms which are definitely not )

This is all well for a 1991 USD to Cr. exchange rate, but traveller is notionally based on a 1977 USD to Cr exchange rate - which makes the whole thing out of kilter by a factor of 3 and a bit.

Has anyone got a suggestion for what cost rates (in Cr) should be used for Imperial Tower Block construction projects in 1105?

Steel and Glass construction looks (to me) like it should be about Cr8000/dTon for hull costs with a limit of about 100 floors (given tallest world buildings at the time)

 

[RogerD]

World tamer’s handbook has this cost at cr100/m^3. TL doesn’t change the cost, only the maximum density.

On planets with non-breathable atmospheres I would use starship rules, especially the planetoid hull rules.

That building is 240m tall, so call it 780,000 m^3. Comes to MCr78.

 

[whartung]

You should a survey of building costs in the 1980s and extrapolate from there.

Boy, ask and ye shall receive: Labor and material requirements for commercial office building projects

In BROAD summary, they found office building cost $22.36 per square foot, 1980 dollars.

So.

We're going to bump that to 25, this 25Cr per sq foot. Convert that to sq meters, and we'll just round it up to 300Cr per sq meter.

Now, it's just a matter of laying out the building. Another instant Google search, and I'm going to go with a 2000 sq m building.

10 stories, 200 sq m per story. 300Cr * 2000 = 600,000Cr.

Seems rather low.

But, that's what the paper said. $22.36 per sq ft.

At least you have some "real numbers" to play with. The paper is kind of interesting, I did not read it in detail but may offer more insight.

 

[kilemall]

Starship build cost is for surviving space. Maybe pricing appropriate to a nuclear bunker or fortress, not commercial.

Staterooms would be excessive as well, unless again in a hostile environment build.

The rule of thumb I applied to freight containers may help here. I have 5-ton and 10-ton containers to be mounted externally as full price for starship hull, and atmosphere/protected cargo hold containers as 10% of that.

I would tend to use CT HG TL hull size limits for how big the building can be, complete with computer limits. Don’t know if MgT2 has a similar mechanic.

Small craft seat costs for office work at 1dton, small craft stateroom costs for per retail/restaurant customer served.

Not perfect, but a little more in line and fast.

 

[RogerD]

LBB 3 has a 5:1 difference between a pressurized and unpressurized shelter, FWIW. And a 3:2 tonnage difference, presumably for airlocks and equipment. Portable unpressurized shelter costs cr2500/ton or cr185/m^3.

 

[Condottiere]

Spacecraft design sequence seems ideal for floating buildings.

Even degravitated variant is going to cost default twenty five thousand starbux per fourteen cubic metres.

Bungalows can adjust to dispersed structure.

Burj Khalifa likely streamlined.

 

[frankm]

Vehicles on planets and buildings don't need to be built to space standards unless you're living on a very inhospitable world. Besides, high tech buildings, houses, and shacks are all built to very different quality levels. I wouldn't want to pay 1000 Cr for a 3.5 sq meter shed (especially in 1977 dollars!). Now 4 dtons on the Space Station or Skylab might cost more than 0.5 MCr for a stateroom... Personally, I'd just cut down costs for less demanding buildings. Air rafts at 4 dtons don't cost as much as spaceships for their hull, either.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Buildings have two issues that are unlikely on space stations: Wind and Rain. Additionally, that atmosphere could be just as inhospitable as Vacuum - and any water (especially when subject to freeze-thaw or accompanied by plants) is much more insidious.

 

[Drew]

You should a survey of building costs in the 1980s and extrapolate from there.

Boy, ask and ye shall receive: Labor and material requirements for commercial office building projects

In BROAD summary, they found office building cost $22.36 per square foot, 1980 dollars.

So.

We're going to bump that to 25, this 25Cr per sq foot. Convert that to sq meters, and we'll just round it up to 300Cr per sq meter.

Now, it's just a matter of laying out the building. Another instant Google search, and I'm going to go with a 2000 sq m building.

10 stories, 200 sq m per story. 300Cr * 2000 = 600,000Cr.

Seems rather low.

But, that's what the paper said. $22.36 per sq ft.

At least you have some "real numbers" to play with. The paper is kind of interesting, I did not read it in detail but may offer more insight.

When I was doing facilities for the ACSIM back in the late 90's; we used this as a guide for filling out the DD 1390/1391. While this is geared to military projects it could be used elsewhere. https://www.usace.army.mil/Portals/..., PAX Newsletter 3_2_2, Dated 21 May 2021.pdf

 

[Enoki]

Commercial buildings generally cost today, somewhere between $200 and $1000 per square foot to construct. That's a very rough estimate, but a reasonable guide to costing out what the building would be in Cr.

There would also be a big variable based on planetary conditions. Gravity, either low or high, might add considerable cost. The type of atmosphere would be another variable as would wind and seismic activity.

For example, on a world with high wind speeds, or frequent severe storms, it's unlikely to have many high-rise buildings due to their vulnerability. If earthquakes were common events, the building would require greater strength in design and again, high-rises might be out of the question.

What's available for materials would also factor in. Is everything you need to build available locally or do you have to haul it in? The later could get expensive PDQ.

 

[Condottiere]

There's the Hobbit option: you dig a hole on the side of a hill.

The Dwarven could be more precise, since it's four thousand starbux per eleven and one fifth cubic metres of tunnelling and fitting out.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Haulage is Cr1000 per 13.5 cubic metres of materials or Cr74/cubic metre. For resin, that is Cr140 per ton, water is Cr74/ton, Sand Cr55/ton and Cr30/ton for stone. Steel is Cr17 per ton.

Though concrete mixing in a vacuum at zero G would be an issue.

Anyone got a design for a grav-assisted concrete mixer?

 

[kilemall]

Haulage is Cr1000 per 13.5 cubic metres of materials or Cr74/cubic metre. For resin, that is Cr140 per ton, water is Cr74/ton, Sand Cr55/ton and Cr30/ton for stone. Steel is Cr17 per ton.

Though concrete mixing in a vacuum at zero G would be an issue.

Anyone got a design for a grav-assisted concrete mixer?

That’s assuming full cubic use, technically it originally was 1000kg per dton.

I’m not wed to that if for no other reason then engineering spaces are either heavier then that or involve small devices with a lot of access space.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

That’s assuming full cubic use, technically it originally was 1000kg per dton.

I’m not wed to that if for no other reason then engineering spaces are either heavier then that or involve small devices with a lot of access space.

1000kg of Hydrogen per dTon. That has a density of just .07. Hence the definition of dTon.

 

[kilemall]

1000kg of Hydrogen per dTon. That has a density of just .07. Hence the definition of dTon.

Understood, but the original cargo references were to 1000kg per dton in terms of carrying capacity. That implies a lot of empty space for heavier density items, which would interfere with the full cubic meter usage of a dton the cost quotes imply.

Have to do some reasoning to come up with the formulas that apply to your universe. 1000 kg per dton is far too restrictive and makes for a much lighter ship not to mention pricing out a lot of low value bulk items.

OTOH full use of dton ignores the very real tare weight and volume of packaging for carrying cargo, and in the case of the heavier density stuff the structural strength of the ship itself.

One thought, you could charge Cr 1000 per dton OR each 1000 kg. So maybe those heavy cargos net you Cr7000.

 

[Enoki]

Haulage is Cr1000 per 13.5 cubic metres of materials or Cr74/cubic metre. For resin, that is Cr140 per ton, water is Cr74/ton, Sand Cr55/ton and Cr30/ton for stone. Steel is Cr17 per ton.

Though concrete mixing in a vacuum at zero G would be an issue.

Anyone got a design for a grav-assisted concrete mixer?

I'd suggest an alternative in rammed earth (dirt) construction. All you need is a machine to mix the soil elements you are using and then extrude them into a mold. The advantage here is that you are using local materials with little or no processing to make the construction. For the most part, you could use unreinforced construction substituting thicker wall sections to get the same results.

Again, the idea should be when you are starting out trying to build on a wilderness planet you use locally available materials that require the least amount of processing and manufacturing to get to an end product.

 

[RogerD]

Again, the idea should be when you are starting out trying to build on a wilderness planet you use locally available materials that require the least amount of processing and manufacturing to get to an end product.

World Tamer's Handbook has rules for all of this if you are interested. Essentially you need to build up a resource industry and a construction industry to build the housing. It's more abstract than "rammed earth" but those details can certainly be added. There are also rules for bringing in prefab housing and setting it up.

 

[Enoki]

Interestingly, there is no construction skill players can get. I always thought that was an odd omission. Combat Engineer doesn't cover that in my opinion.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Mongoose provides Profession (ex Trade) so you could be a Civil Engineer if you wished. TNE has Engineer (Construction). Earlier versions lumped all civilians into the "Other" (patrons, crooks or useless) category.

 

[Condottiere]

It's a documented skill, and I would suppose civil engineering could be acquired as an option.

Like cost accounting.

Or, like all contractors, Jack of All Trades.