• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Budget ships

Well, it does have more cargo space than the Type-S, but yeah 50Mcr (which I just noticed) isn't cheap. Maybe the design could be tweaked to remove the staterooms or something.
 
It's difficult to improve on the Scout and Free Trader from a budget perspective using LBB2. Toss the air/raft, adjust the number of staterooms, that's about it.


Note that the Hammer is about 8 Dt oversized (presuming LBB2), which is why it has more cargo space than the Scout. Very beautiful deck plans though.
 
For more corner-cutting, offhand I could suggest:

(1) remove the scoops (with affiliated purifier).
(2) use default sensors (no cost).


I know, removing the scoops (and purifier) is scary, but still, cheaper cheaper.
 
Well, it does have more cargo space than the Type-S, but yeah 50Mcr (which I just noticed) isn't cheap. Maybe the design could be tweaked to remove the staterooms or something.

It's difficult to improve on the Scout and Free Trader from a budget perspective using LBB2. Toss the air/raft, adjust the number of staterooms, that's about it.


Note that the Hammer is about 8 Dt oversized (presuming LBB2), which is why it has more cargo space than the Scout. Very beautiful deck plans though.

Trillion Credit Squadron gives something else you can do to a LBB2 Type S. Convert 20Td of the 40Td fuel tankage into collapsible tanks, freeing up that 20Td for cargo during J1 operations. This is basically the "Seeker" mining variant, but with the modification being reversible at will. Costs Cr10,000 and 0.2Td cargo space if part of the original design, costs at least Cr11,000 as a refit (costs increase if cargo bays are optimized for utility by relocating staterooms and such).

Without the collapsible tank filled, the ship can only do J-1.
 
Trillion Credit Squadron gives something else you can do to a LBB2 Type S. Convert 20Td of the 40Td fuel tankage into collapsible tanks, freeing up that 20Td for cargo during J1 operations. ...

Without the collapsible tank filled, the ship can only do J-1.

We have left LBB2 far behind and are now deep into optional rules for LBB5.

Technically this is still not allowed by RAW even using JTAS#14. We must have enough tankage for 4 week and one maximum jump (LBB2,LBB5). PP fuel must be standard fixed tankage (TCS). Jump fuel can be demountable tanks or drop tanks, but not collapsible tanks (TCS). Collapsible tanks can hold additional fuel (TCS). Powering down does not affect tankage requirements, only how long the fuel lasts (JTAS#14).


Even if we allowed your suggestion above, I would say it would leave the Scout unable to perform J-2 as an attempted J-2 would drain the tanks and hence stop the PP in the middle of the jump process. Not something I would dare to try...
 
(1) remove the scoops (with affiliated purifier).
I agree it would decrease the fixed cost, but it would increase the operating cost since we would have to buy refined fuel. The scoop is cheap enough not to matter, but the purifier is one of the most profitable machines onboard.

With purifier:


Without purifier:



(2) use default sensors (no cost).
Quite, which is what I did in the budget ship in post #1:
Code:
Sensors                                                                  
Vd  Commu-8 ±0 A+2 PA(Elec)               1           0           0      
Vd  Radar-9 ±0 A+2 PA(Elec)               1           0           0      
D  Porth-5 ±0 A-- P(Phot)                 1           0           0

Thank you for that, I only realised I could use them after reading your recently resurrected thread about small craft.
 
A few things to consider when evaluating starships for this kind of exercise: are you looking at just the ship stats (i.e. spreadsheet calculations) or just deck plans, or a combination of both? By which ruleset are you making the evaluation and are all ships compared by that same standard? Canonical small ship designs - by which I mean those in the 100-200 dton range especially in the CT era - are notorious for not following their own construction rules. The rule stating that designs within 20% of the calculated tonnage are "close enough" muddies the waters even further. How much variation do you allow and still consider ships comparable? By Book 2 standards, a nominal 100 dton with 120 dtons shown on the deck plans has a huge advantage over a deck plan that is kept to an accurate 100 dtons. In my experience a comparative analysis of two ships on a true apples-to-apples basis is extremely difficult.

To add to AnotherDilbert and Blue Ghost's discussion on the Hammer and the Type-S:
1. Can any Book 2, 100 dton, Drives A ship be profitable as a freighter? You could certainly limit fuel to Jump 1 and stick trading on a J-1 main, giving you more cargo space, but even then I think it would be difficult according to the trade rules. Speculation and lucky die rolls would certainly help with profitability. You could even strip the ship of all staterooms, galleys, freshers, air/raft, and hallways and have the ship run by a robot brain pilot/navigator/broker and an optional robotic engineer. I designed such a ship a long time ago (wish I'd kept the plans). It maximizes cargo space and (potentially) minimizes crew expenditures, but isn't much fun to play Traveller with.

2. I'm not sure of AnotherDilbert's comment about the Hammer being "neither cheap nor flexible". Both the Type-S and Hammer are nominally the same size, both are Jump 2 with fuel for J-2, both have four staterooms. Conceptually they are nearly identical. I'm not sure where the MCr50 price tag for the Hammer comes from and would be curious to see the Type-S run through the same ruleset/spreadsheet. My back of envelope calcs put the Hammer's cost at around MCr33 including the air/raft, which is comparable to the Type-S's stated cost of MCr27.6 - and even then I'd want to see a side-by-side spreadsheet to see what the real differences are, and by what ruleset they are being compared. With regards to flexibility, I've seen a half dozen or so versions of the Type-S, and I've created four different versions of the Hammer, so I'm not sure that flexibility is an issue, unless I am misunderstanding AnotherDilbert's comment.

These disparities are one of the reasons I stopped gearheading starships and robots: too many rulesets, too many variables, and too many people to try to please. In the end I'm more concerned with playability and having fun designing the thing.

Sorry if any of this seems argumentative. It is not meant to be. The OP's question about getting into space on the cheap is certainly a worthy one and I've always had a problem with the cost of entry into starship ownership. I think the solution lies less in ways of stripping down a ship to make it more affordable/profitable and more with finding less expensive ships. My go-to has always been the dilapidated, used ship. It comes at a severe discount but needs a lot of work and is just barely spaceworthy. The detached Scout model of the ship being a loaner with strings attached also works quiet well.
 
Using the old cargo rules, my second and third gaming groups were able to make extra money with their scout ships, I can't recall if it covered the ship mortgage, but for players who somehow managed to outright own their ships, the profit made from trading goods more than covered fuel, life support and berthing. At least according to TTB and starter edition.

And I imagine robot ship would just make the whole venture of PCs trying to make a living hauling freight a non-starter.
 
We have left LBB2 far behind and are now deep into optional rules for LBB5.

Technically this is still not allowed by RAW even using JTAS#14. We must have enough tankage for 4 week and one maximum jump (LBB2,LBB5). PP fuel must be standard fixed tankage (TCS). Jump fuel can be demountable tanks or drop tanks, but not collapsible tanks (TCS). Collapsible tanks can hold additional fuel (TCS). Powering down does not affect tankage requirements, only how long the fuel lasts (JTAS#14).


Even if we allowed your suggestion above, I would say it would leave the Scout unable to perform J-2 as an attempted J-2 would drain the tanks and hence stop the PP in the middle of the jump process. Not something I would dare to try...
Fuel starvation won't be an issue.
Powerplant burns 20Td over 4 weeks -- about 0.03Td/hr.
Collapsible tank transfer pumps can completely empty the collapsible tanks in six hours (TCS) -- 3.3Td/hr.
In the 16 minutes (one turn in LBB2 '81) needed to consume the full 20Td from the fixed tanks for Jump-2, the transfer pumps will have moved 0.88 tons of fuel back into them from the collapsible tanks. During that time, the powerplant will need 0.008Td fuel to keep running.

Basically, this is exploiting the JTAS #14/TCS power-down rules to get some use out of the ludicrously-high LBB2 PP Fuel requirements for 100Td ships.

20Td for powerplant fuel is just silly when the same setup in a Type A only needs 10Td for the same output. But canon says that's what it is, so there must be an in-universe justification. IMTU it's so the Type S can eke out a 3-parsec range as back-to-back J2+J1 (math in spoiler below), or as reserve fuel to Jump away from threats because the Type S is a pathetic combat vessel even with all possible upgrades.

Here's the math:
Spoiler:

1/2 week to 100D at 1G/PN1: 1.25 tons PP-fuel, 38.75 tons of fuel remain.
Jump 2: 20 tons J-fuel plus 5 tons PP-fuel during Jump: 25 tons fuel. 13.75 tons remain.
Jump 1: 10 tons J-fuel plus 2.5 tons PP-fuel during Jump: 12.5 tons fuel. 1.25 tons remain.
1/2 week from 100D at destination, again at 1G/PN1: 1.25 tons PP fuel and that's the last of the 40 tons carried.

It's not something you do normally, and never if you're expecting a hostile reception when you get to your 3-parsec-distant destination. But the option does exist.

Of course, drop tanks are a better solution, if available.


On the other hand, on re-reading S4 it turns out the Seeker modification is basically just turning two staterooms into cargo space, converting the remaining two into double-occupancy rooms, and putting a single pulse laser into the turret; no fuel tankage changes. *shrug*
 
And interpolating from the LBB2 drive table, a J-1 drive for a 100Td hull ("half-A", if you will) is 7.5 tons and 7.5MCr, a half-A powerplant is 3.5 tons and 4 MCr. Unfortunately, the same method gets you a 0-ton half-A maneuver drive... so you're probably stuck with a Size A as the minimum there. I suppose you could use it at 2G every other turn alternating with no maneuver, by storing power in the jump drive capacitors. Really useful for takeoff and landing on Size 9+ worlds and forcing the crew to make interesting tactical choices in combat.

While this only saves 6.5MCr, it frees up 23 Td (including fuel not needed for J2/PN2) for payload.


If this is an option, it would replace the Type S for a lot of use cases, so there would also be a standard-design 100Td hull with a 12Td engine bay in addition to the canon 100Td/15Td hull.
 
Last edited:
Fuel starvation won't be an issue.
Powerplant burns 20Td over 4 weeks -- about 0.03Td/hr.
Collapsible tank transfer pumps can completely empty the collapsible tanks in six hours (TCS) -- 3.3Td/hr.
It's still not allowed by RAW. Whether it's a problem is a Referee ruling; I would say it's a problem and likely misjump. Give it a few more tons of fuel tank and I might be onboard.


Basically, this is exploiting the JTAS #14/TCS power-down rules to get some use out of the ludicrously-high LBB2 PP Fuel requirements for 100Td ships.
Certainly, and I admire the creativity. I'm hesitant to let it break other rules.


20Td for powerplant fuel is just silly when the same setup in a Type A only needs 10Td for the same output. But canon says that's what it is, so there must be an in-universe justification. IMTU it's so the Type S can eke out a 3-parsec range as back-to-back J2+J1 (math in spoiler below), or as reserve fuel to Jump away from threats because the Type S is a pathetic combat vessel even with all possible upgrades.
I can't argue with IMTU, but by RAW it won't quite work. The power down rules require the power plant to be powered down the entire four weeks, so no J-2 possible. Three J-1s should work if you can squeeze them into four weeks, though.


On the other hand, on re-reading S4 it turns out the Seeker modification is basically just turning two staterooms into cargo space, converting the remaining two into double-occupancy rooms, and putting a single pulse laser into the turret; no fuel tankage changes. *shrug*
It also takes 10 Dt tankage and turn it into an additional 12 Dt cargo (ore bay).
 
And interpolating from the LBB2 drive table, a J-1 drive for a 100Td hull ("half-A", if you will) is 7.5 tons and 7.5MCr, ...

Quite, it should exist, but I assume it's part of the general nerfing of small ships.

Much easier to go to the LBB5 system than to change the lettered drives.
 
A few things to consider when evaluating starships for this kind of exercise: are you looking at just the ship stats (i.e. spreadsheet calculations) or just deck plans, or a combination of both? By which ruleset are you making the evaluation and are all ships compared by that same standard?
Agreed, we can only really compare ships of the same edition, using that editions rules.

I only use ship's stats. Deck plans can change the size of rooms, but not the number of "staterooms".


Canonical small ship designs - by which I mean those in the 100-200 dton range especially in the CT era - are notorious for not following their own construction rules.
Bah, the Referee can always break the rules.


The rule stating that designs within 20% of the calculated tonnage are "close enough" muddies the waters even further. How much variation do you allow and still consider ships comparable?
I don't see the problem; 20% bigger just means larger rooms, not more cargo or "staterooms".


To add to AnotherDilbert and Blue Ghost's discussion on the Hammer and the Type-S:
1. Can any Book 2, 100 dton, Drives A ship be profitable as a freighter?
Hell, no. Sticking by RAW we can get 20 Dt cargo (and a single stateroom), netting us up to kCr 20 per jump, but the costs are about kCr 84 per jump. Even J-1 and 30 Dt cargo is not even remotely enough.


2. I'm not sure of AnotherDilbert's comment about the Hammer being "neither cheap nor flexible".
I should be more specific, I didn't mean to disparage any design:

Cheap: The Hammer uses a custom hull which costs MCr 20, the Scout uses a MCr 2 standard hull. That alone makes the Hammer much more expensive. As far as I can see the Hammer could just as well use a standard hull and be just as cheap as the Scout.

Flexible: With flexible I mean ships that can reallocate space at need (without a few months in the yard). For example see Blue Ghost's idea about replacing fixed tankage with collapsible tanks above or the Modular Cutter. The Scout is certainly not flexible, and neither is the Hammer, even if it is much better with a reasonable cargo hold.

With the budget ship I tried to create flexibility on the cheap by placing all available space in regular shaped cargo hold, allowing standard-sized functional modules to be exchanged easily.


I get the Scout to be base MCr 35, MCr 31 as standard:
Code:
                                                      3      34,7
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull                   100 Dt          1            100          
Configuration       Cone               2                        3
Scoops              Streamlined                                  
Armour                                 0                         
                                                                 
Jump Drive          A                  2    1        10        10
Manoeuvre D         A                  2    1         1         4
Power Plant         A                  2    1         4         8
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2        40          
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1        20       0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1         1         4
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
                                                                 
Cargo                                                 3          
                                                                 
Turret-2 Beam       1 Turret           2    1         1       2,6
Air/raft            4 Dton                  1         4       0,6
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 34,7             Sum:         3      34,7
Class Cost          MCr  3,75           Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 31,29


And the Hammer MCr 52, or MCr 47 as standard:
Code:
                                                     -8      52,2
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull                Custom             1            100          
Configuration       Cone               2                       21
Scoops              Streamlined                                  
Armour                                 0                         
                                                                 
Jump Drive          A                  2    1        10        10
Manoeuvre D         A                  2    1         1         4
Power Plant         A                  2    1         4         8
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-2, 4 weeks            2        40          
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1        20       0,5
Computer            m/1bis             R    1         1         4
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  3        12       1,5
                                                                 
Cargo                                                15          
                                                                 
Turret-2 Beam       1 Turret           2    1         1       2,6
Air/raft            4 Dton                  1         4       0,6
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 52,2             Sum:        -8      52,2
Class Cost          MCr  5,68           Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 47,04
Note that it is 8 Dt over-sized.
 
Back
Top