Brown Dwarf Refuelling Points?

[SJWaldock]

Can Brown Dwarves be used for refuelling?

IIRC in IMPERIUM each side could build tankers capable of extracting fuel from the star Sirius, enabling operations to extend past the system. If this is possible for Brown Dwarves I imagine that the imperium would want to keep the exact position of such objects classified to keep them from being used as 'shortcuts' across rifts etc., by unfriendly powers, pirates et al.

The secrecy could only be maintained, I imagine, by either preventing or controlling astronomical research into such things.

Any thoughts?

 

[Malenfant]

Nope, BDs can't themselves be used for refuelling, though their moons or rings (if present) could be if there's ice on them. Gravity is ridiculously high for a start, you'd never be able to climb out of the gravity well.

I wrote an article for JTAS online about BDs, with realistic rules for generating them, how they evolve, what moons they have, and what they're useful for. Might want to check that out, if you're a JTAS subscriber - it should answer all your questions (and yes, I thought about the secrecy thing too).

http://jtas.sjgames.com/sample.cgi?549

shows a tiny sample of it.

 

[mike wightman]

In the Imperium and Dark Nebula games tanker squadrons could manufacture fuel from stars - this idea has never been repeated in the OTU.

It should be. (IMHO )

 

[Piper]

Would it be possible to skim fuel from a planetary nebula?

If not with conventional scoops, perhaps a specialized tanker mounting a Bussard scoop?

 

[Anthony]

Well, there's hydrogen in a planetary nebula, but it's still very diffuse; your average planetary nebula is still a hard vacuum by terrestrial standards.

It's also in principle possible to collect hydrogen from a stellar wind, or even from the interstellar medium if you're going fast enough.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Challenge Magazine Issue #62, 1992, pp20-25 , adventure "Into the Gap", recalls the use of a Brown Dwarf system between Tetrini & the MT/era PE the Duchy of Oasis, IIRC. By Greg Videll.

Has deckplans for a Type P corsair, & Type R subsidized merchant from Traders & Gunboats.

 

[Liam Devlin]

I have a copy of the adventure xeroxed as my storage of said copy badly fared between moves several years ago. they do not refuel at the BD itself, but rather as Mal points out, on one of the icy moons, where their lair is.

 

[kafka47]

Mal, I was wondering what your thoughts about making the Traveller universe a much Harder SF milieu?

As it seems that you and I are on the same wavelength on a number of issues regarding making Traveller more realistic whilst preserving the role playing aspect thus keeping in some of the Space Opera handwaves just to make it more enjoyable.

Is it true that I have found a kindred spirit and are there others like us?

 

[Malenfant]

Kafka - yep, sounds like you might have

I think my ideal scifi RPG would be hard as hell in terms of the universe (as realistic as possible), but with strong, possibly larger-than-life characters to drive the game on. I don't believe that these are mutually exclusive concepts - you could have space opera like characters in a universe that is physically realistic.

As for whether there are others like us? Probably. Any people that play DP9's Jovian Chronicles might fit the bill...

 

[Ran Targas]

^ I would heartily agree as long as you still allow the use of handwavium technology to advance the game where needed. I am personally very fond of gaming in pursuit of the mysteries of the Ancients and like storylines. I like my players to think the universe is far more weird than they can imagine. Just because man can't do it (yet), doesn't mean it can't be done or hasn't been done.

As for brown dwarves: Mal, I have a question. What would the gravitational pull be at the cloud tops of a moderately sized brown dwarf?

And nebulas: I use nebulas IMTU like mountain ranges are used in most fantasy settings; they are obstacles, they represent available resources, and they are the source of all kinds of adventure seeds. Some are truly maelstroms, churning with chaotic magnetic fields, reverberating shock waves, and lots of hard radiation. Navigating them requires extreme intestinal fortitude but I hold out the reward of finding clouds of rare metals, valuable hydrocarbons, raw diamonds, or other strangeness. Anyway, I enjoy using them, even if illogically based, as a backdrop for numerous adventures.

 

[Malenfant]

Gravity at BDs is huge. You've got 10-70 jupiter masses packed into a volume that is actually a bit smaller than Jupiter. And the size actually changes over time as the BD contracts gravitationally.

For a 4 billion year old BD with 70 jupiter masses, the surface gravity is a whopping 268 earth gravities (radius 57,835 km)! For a 15 Jupiter mass BD of the same age, it's 38 earth gravities (radius 71,343 km).

So the 70 jupiter mass BD is actually about the size of Saturn!

 

[mike wightman]

268G

That's almost ten times the surface gravity of the Sun...

 

[aramis]

Far less internal heat to keep it inflated, and a significant chunk of the mass, Sigg.

 

[Ran Targas]

So Mal, I assume from your calcs that even at the cloud tops, the gravity is still considerable enough to preclude scooping. So all you can hope for is the BD has some icy moons.

Now what about sifting planetary or interstellar nebula for hydrogen; it may be slow but would it be productive? I always assumed it would be.

 

[Malenfant]

yeah, that gravity is for the cloudtops. Again, think of it like this - you got 10-70 jupiter masses, crammed into a volume that is at best a little bigger than jupiter and at worst about the size of Saturn (or maybe smaller). So it's hardly surprising that the gravity is so high.

Incidentally, this applies to M V dwarf stars too. Admittedly they're bigger in radius than BDs, but their surface gravities can be prety big too. Even a 0.3 solar mass star (an M0 V with a radius of 0.3 Sols) has a surface gravity of 93g.

As for nebulas, no it wouldn't be productive. Especially considering that there are much easier ways to get hydrogen.

 

[Ran Targas]

^ Can I still pretend?

 

[Rossoneill]

Interesting discussion .
I had never considered Bd as refueling points ,
And now i never will .
But i will probably use the Ice balls in that system for refueling
Thanks for the Ideas Malenfant and all

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by thrash:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Malenfant:
[qb] Any people that play DP9's Jovian Chronicles might fit the bill...

Considering that Marc Vezina was willing to hand-wave asteroids into the Earth-Moon L4/L5 points (where there is demonstrably nothing but dust in reality) rather than fix his backstory, I'd be careful about assuming too much.
</font>[/QUOTE]What's wrong with moving asteroids into and L4/L5?

Either way, JC is still reasonably hard science with heroic characters, that was the point I was making.

 

[Malenfant]

http://www.astro.uwo.ca/~wiegert/etrojans/etrojans.html

Seems to imply that there might be one or two.

Either way, it's not a gamebreaker, and I'm not particularly interested in arguing the point.

 

[SJWaldock]

Thanks for your pointer Malenfant

I've read your article and it does answer all my questions, thanks.

I think IMTU astrometry , determining the positions of stars is the province of the scouts and doesn't get any Imperial grants, while astronomy , the study of stars will usually be conducted by scientists on the spot and does get Imperial grants, orders of Knighthood etc.

Astrometry will be portrayed to the public as a vital but rather boring necessity of insterstellar commerce; rather like tending and replaceing navigation bouys is today.