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Brilliant Lances-- yeah, buddy!

...We examine the two systems in LBB:2, Mayday, HG2, and others to attempt to derive the detailed "base" simulation. Of course we repeatedly fail because those systems were never spun out of a base simulation.

Having in hand a highly detailed, highly crunchy base simulation of space combat first and then spinning various space combat systems at various levels of abstraction from that base simulation was an excellent idea.

Releasing that highly detailed, highly crunchy base simulation of space combat as TNE's first stand alone space combat game was not a good idea.

Valid point. In an ideal world, you'd be able to execute only optimal decisions. In the world I've seen, less so. In maintaining production schedules, you have to work with what is available. Since it was my plan that what became BL would be included with the initial release of TNE, or at least contiguous with it, it was close at hand and nearly ready. Slots in the production schedule and orders from Diamond Comics must be obeyed. Life ain't perfect.

That's a laudable goal. Deciding that every variety of TNE combat would be interconnected at the most basic level was the right decision. Releasing the highly detailed and crunchy basic level first was the wrong decision.

At least I'm being accused of having held a laudable goal. That's better than some of my days.

Thanks,

Dave
 
Armchair quarterbacking aside, Battle Rider is only 28 pages and both could realistically have fit in the same box, used the same 3 hex maps and, if not included both sets of counters just used the BR counters (those wanting to use miniatures would use them instead). Everything else is the same so just label Brilliant Lances as the "RPG simulator" and Battle Rider as "the game."

That's the wonder of 20/20 hindsight for you, though.
 
Armchair quarterbacking aside, Battle Rider is only 28 pages and both could realistically have fit in the same box, used the same 3 hex maps and, if not included both sets of counters just used the BR counters (those wanting to use miniatures would use them instead). Everything else is the same so just label Brilliant Lances as the "RPG simulator" and Battle Rider as "the game."

That's the wonder of 20/20 hindsight for you, though.

Skip this if you don't like this kind of armchair refereeing 20 years after the fact--I am scarcely interested in saying this myself--but:

That would have been possible had BR been available at the time, but it wasn't able to be designed until much later, leaving a hole that the BL release filled. Since BR wasn't made yet, BL was going to be perceived as a game no matter what we did.

That said, we almost did what you describe. The BR maps said "BL" on them, the counters were almost identical, but it was about a year later.

I do recall how FASA had a release for their Star Trek license called the "Starship Combat Simulator." Assuming that was the same principle as BL vs. BR, I wonder how that worked out for them.

I think the horse stopped moving.
 
Right, BR wasn't developed yet but it's really just abstracting out concepts, so would undoubtedly have put a delay on the process.... unless perhaps it was conceived that way from the beginning, in which case many of the abstractions would have been obvious (record keeping almost entirely gone, etc. The only real jump needs to be using cards instead of dice and all hits as critical hits). The rest is largely duplicative or obvious: bogeys/task forces, white-outs, sensors stuff, etc.

I still have the Star Trek Tactical Combat Ship Simulator! I loved FASA's stuff in that era. In fact, they included with their deluxe RPG set (like you said you wanted to do for TNE with BL), and had it released separately as a "game" as well. My gaming group had quite a bit of fun with it, though it doesn't emulate pre-TNG movie or TV Trek battles very well IMO.
 
Life ain't perfect.

I understand that. I'm often amazed at the volume of work GDW produced over the years.

BL brought with it many of the things I always wanted in Traveller space combat. I'm probably going to dig it out again thanks to to this thread.

At least I'm being accused of having held a laudable goal. That's better than some of my days.

Not accused, praised. Having a FF&S of sorts on hand for space combat meant any future space combat games released would have a commonality. There would be no repeat of CT's Great LBB:2/HG2 Schism. You at GDW not only made the hard decision, you also successfully accomplished all the very hard work that went along with it. There are plenty of companies who would have just mailed it in and plenty who still mail it in.

Brilliant Lances was just too much too soon for too many people. It could have been spun a certain way like FF&S was, "Here's the detailed technical architecture for the setting, but we'll be releasing streamlined construction rules in the future...", but that's water over a dam that doesn't even exist anymore.

Anyway, the horse hasn't just stopped moving, the remains have been gone for so long that the stains aren't even there anymore. ;)
 
Not accused, praised.

Sorry, that probably made it look like I was dismissing your compliment, and that's not what I meant, I was just being self-effacing or something.

Seriously, thank you for appreciating that.

Having a FF&S of sorts on hand for space combat meant any future space combat games released would have a commonality. There would be no repeat of CT's Great LBB:2/HG2 Schism. You at GDW not only made the hard decision, you also successfully accomplished all the very hard work that went along with it. There are plenty of companies who would have just mailed it in and plenty who still mail it in.

Brilliant Lances was just too much too soon for too many people. It could have been spun a certain way like FF&S was, "Here's the detailed technical architecture for the setting, but we'll be releasing streamlined construction rules in the future...", but that's water over a dam that doesn't even exist anymore.

That's a good point about "too much too soon for too many," and I think, not inaccurate. I always felt that we were crucified (or self-crucified) between the extremes of trying to make it more accessible to new players and listening to the established base of detail freaks. And since the new players didn't know who they were yet, they couldn't write us and ask for things the way the detail freaks could. So we constantly veered one way or another between those two poles, often in the same products.

This discussion today really does make me wonder about that FASA Star Fleet Combat Simulator, though, because when I was explaining the genesis of BL, the FASA name popped into my head.

Thanks again,

Dave
 
Sorry, that probably made it look like I was dismissing your compliment...


Please don't worry. While I did understand that you weren't dismissing my compliment, I wanted to repeat and amplify my compliment for those who might not have been on the same "wavelength" you and I were.

Thank you again. For everything. Seriously. :)
 
Ooh! Ooh! Two strong memories from this.

Right, BR wasn't developed yet but it's really just abstracting out concepts, so would undoubtedly have put a delay on the process.... unless perhaps it was conceived that way from the beginning, in which case many of the abstractions would have been obvious (record keeping almost entirely gone, etc. The only real jump needs to be using cards instead of dice and all hits as critical hits). The rest is largely duplicative or obvious: bogeys/task forces, white-outs, sensors stuff, etc.

No, was not conceived that way from the beginning. We knew we were going to have to make a fleet-level game because BL couldn't do that, but the actual contours of what BR became were not preconceived. In fact, the first big dramatic breakthrough, believe it or not, was when Frank came in one day and said he was sick of players whining about how they were cursed with poor die rolls, and that's why they lost, so the fleet game was going to have these cards so everyone would be using the same fixed set of odds and that would shut up the whiners. That's true of dice as well, but from little acorns mighty oaks do grow. The critical hit thing was the key, followed by records reduction. I didn't really like the cards. There was a tendency for players to get lazy and pull the card first to see what it said, and then calculate the difficulty after the fact. So I preferred dice.

I still have the Star Trek Tactical Combat Ship Simulator! I loved FASA's stuff in that era. In fact, they included with their deluxe RPG set (like you said you wanted to do for TNE with BL), and had it released separately as a "game" as well. My gaming group had quite a bit of fun with it, though it doesn't emulate pre-TNG movie or TV Trek battles very well IMO.

Yes, you're right. That's probably where I got the idea that I wanted to use for Deluxe TNE before our print buyer told me it was impossible. FF&S seemed a good alternative, until that blew up on us too. See:

http://waynesbooks.com/TravellerTheNewEra.html

Scroll down to "TNE Deluxe Edition [Box Set]" and the blue text beneath it.

Dave
 
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I do recall how FASA had a release for their Star Trek license called the "Starship Combat Simulator." Assuming that was the same principle as BL vs. BR, I wonder how that worked out for them.

It has its fans. It was simple - far simpler in the basic game than its competition, Star Fleet Battles - and was the ship combat system for 2E FASA Trek.

1E FASA-Trek had the same basic game mechanics, but in the core rules box.

They didn't release any expansions that were solely for it, but the ship books were not really for the RPG as much as the STTCS, later renamed/reboxed as the STIII-TCS.

FASA made a habit of integrated RPG and Boardgame universes - but always sacrificing realism in favor of game-play. Battletech, Renegade Legion, and Star Trek. (The Top Gun boxed set was fully Battletech compatible.)

Battletech did "right" what TNE failed at: integrated multiple scale lines. It did this by a much different process...

A list of modules:
Mechwarrior = RPG
Battletech (and Citytech) = tactical ground combat, vehicle scale
Battleforce (1E) = Supertactical ground combat.
Aerotech = air and space combat
Succession Wars = Space Strategic
Battletroops = tactical ground combat, infantry scale
Battlespace = Space Combat (replaced Aerotech)
Battleforce 2 = suptertactical and world invasion scales
Battlespace = Space Combat​

Thing is, on every scale, they made certain each was a playable and fun game. Sacrificing simulation for playability in every scale.

TNE apparently tried...
TNE Rpg
Brilliant Lances = Tactical space, small ships
Battle Rider = Tactical Space, big ships
Striker II = Tactical Ground​

Which makes me wonder... was an operational level game in the plans?
 
...but always sacrificing realism in favor of game-play. Battletech, Renegade Legion, and Star Trek. (The Top Gun boxed set was fully Battletech compatible.)

That last bit speaks for itself in terms of the audience they optimized themselves for.

Battletech did "right" what TNE failed at: integrated multiple scale lines.

I concur with your use of quotation marks. There was a sizeable market for a universe built around a very stylized, cinematic scenario done repeatedly with variations. However, my experience is that that audience was never the sort of people that wanted to use Traveller to scratch their itches. As well, there were certain things that the Mighty Makers of Europa (and I don't say that pejoratively) were just never temperamentally going to be able to do. FASA deliberately evolved to where they were very well matched to their chosen market, a significant accomplishment since they started out with Traveller and chose to go another way. GDW did not or could not do that.

Since I came of age with SPI and the whole game vs. simulation wars, I'll say that GDW had so much simulation in its DNA that it was always going to be the house of Harpoon and Traveller and Dangerous Journeys and went out on those terms.

Which makes me wonder... was an operational level game in the plans?

Nope, not since we were flush with cash with visions of mounted maps and plastic pieces dancing in our heads.
 
I concur with your use of quotation marks. There was a sizeable market for a universe built around a very stylized, cinematic scenario done repeatedly with variations. However, my experience is that that audience was never the sort of people that wanted to use Traveller to scratch their itches.

Funny, but most of the people I played Traveller with also played Battletech. Not so many played Mechwarrior... but there was a high overlap with Battletech.

Thing is, many fans of the era just prior were fans of the settings... and the two settings were very similar in scope. Large governments, wars on the borders, Nobles in Space, strong military themes...

I know that, in the early 90's, I didn't see a whole lot of difference between the two as settings, other than the presence of Mecha and that the civil war in BT was 200 years old.

And, while less successful, GDW had attempted similar with both CT and it's wargames (which were generally fun but not well integrated), and more successfully with Space: 1889 and its wargames (which were a blast and very well integrated).

Twilight 2K even had Command Decision.

Now, I realize Alaska may not be mainstream in its demographic - but up here, there was much overlap with Traveller and Battletech.

Spoiler contains digression about how non-mainstream.
Spoiler:
after all, in a high school of 2000 students, over 30 were playing RPG's at school, and over 60 were playing... yeah, at least 3% of my fellow HS students in the mid-80's were playing RPG's, and each of the 7 high schools had 20-40 people playing at lunch... and reportedly, similar ratios of in-school to out of school. (I can personally vouch for at least 30 at Chugiak, my alma mater; I saw, on various activities 20 at West, but know that another 10 didn't meet in their two groups because of that activity, and 30 at Dimond and 25 more at Service, and almost 40 at East. Hell, I sat in on a group at East during a 2-day activity. 8p, in the hall between SWS and East.)

Cryton can confirm either Service or Dimond.

A list compiled in 1988 at a local con had over 300 RPG players in Anchorage... roughly 1/1000 of the city was on that list, and most of the people on the list were GM's.


So, yeah, not exactly a "normal" proportion of RPGers, and probably not representative, but my contacts of the day were a validly large sample. I knew 30 traveller players throughout the city; 15 at my HS alone.

But both You (Dave) and Loren have expressed a belief that Battletech was a very different demographic, and my experiences over the years, and even to date, say that's wrong... if anything, TNE was a unique demographic, mostly not carried forward (tho' Cryton was). I find it even more humorous, because FASA were, at the core, Traveller writers who broadened out.

So I have to wonder - what kind of market research was done during the run-up to TNE?
Where? How? When?
 
Not enough to suit you, I'd guess.

I'm serious - I'm trying to understand why the changes were made, and why some of the staff of GDW have expressed some "interesting" beliefs about the fan base.

Were they driven by market research, industry trends, personal preferences of the staff?

My interest is more historical in nature. (My BA was in history.) And I'm just blunt enough to ask outright...
 
http://waynesbooks.com/TravellerTheNewEra.html

Scroll down to "TNE Deluxe Edition [Box Set]" and the blue text beneath it.

Dave

I heartilly agree on the comments about the lasers being automatic hits within a given range and target size/agility. FF&S and FF&S T4 really do inform about physics, when the books came out I whipped out my physics book and started reverse engineering your fuel use formulas on the fusion plants. Assummed the D2 D2 reaction, the abundance of Duterium in a sample of hydrogen acquired from the earth then it was basic math from there, energy produced per mole and heat engine efficiency thrown in and I got very close to the same power output as given in your tables. That seriously impressed me as to the level of thought that went into your work.
 
Funny, but most of the people I played Traveller with also played Battletech. Not so many played Mechwarrior... but there was a high overlap with Battletech.

Just a small addition to this, as I read over the thread from my southern German point of view... When I started gaming in around 1988/89, practically all Traveller-players I knew in this area also played BattleTech - and most of them were absolutely anti-MechWarrior RPG.
 
Were they MegaTraveller players?

No, these were the (sad) final days of the german Traveller edition, mixing up CT rules with some of the MT additions (like the universal task system from DGP and the sensor rules for space combat from MT).
At least my group stayed with CT until TNE came out.

Another note of the BT/Trav-relation: The guys who translated Traveller into German (Fantasy Productions) bought the license for Classic: BattleTech after FASA went down, before they closed their doors, too and Catalyst took over.
 
No, these were the (sad) final days of the german Traveller edition, mixing up CT rules with some of the MT additions (like the universal task system from DGP and the sensor rules for space combat from MT).

Thank you.

I was only two hours east of GDW as the crow flies, but it was very similar: of 4 Traveller games nearby, none converted over to MegaTraveller, either they went to T2K or 2300 or remained CT. No battletech either, I remember the game in the store, but the usual FASA stuff was SFB or Grav Ball.
 
I need to clarify my point. I did not mean that people who play(ed) Traveller did not also play Battletech. People do all kinds of dissimilar things for different reasons. My point is that people who played Traveller did not play it because it was like Battletech, or vice versa. When they played Battletech it was because that was what they were in the mood for (stylized, cinematic) and when they played Traveller it was because that was what they were in the mood for (all things to all people).

You don't say, "people who read Hemingway also read Doonesbury, so Hemingway should include more stoners who snorkel in ponds," or "people who eat hamburgers also drink Coca Cola, so McDonalds should make their hamburgers taste more like Coke, or get out of the burger business and make Coke instead." People eat hamburgers and drink Coke for different reasons, both of which are important to them, and somebody already makes Coke, so no point in McDonalds trying to duplicate that effort.

BT was able to say, "here is the technology, that's what you get. It's left over (Star League?) technology, and you can't make any more," then gradually add in, "Here's some new Clan Tech" in a managed fashion. There was no design-your-own alternative tech, no alien races, all of the hyperspace commo was owned by one outfit, so players were prevented from attempting to provide or duplicate various in-game standards. The loyalties in BT were mostly to pre-defined houses or clans, and you could show up at the summer Con wearing your house colors and patches and attend the wedding and it would be cool, and you'd enjoy that sense of everybody being in the same universe.

Traveller said, "here's how to build all kinds of things at all kinds of tech levels, and you can play in the OTU or play any universe or novel or movie you want." So it had a number of bases who wanted to set their campaign anywhere, or wanted to know who won the rebellion, who wanted to design their own ships and vehicles and weapons and robots, who wanted to play aliens, who wanted to design aliens, who wanted to design planets and ecosystems, who wanted pre-generated adventures, who wanted books of personalities or patrons, or who said, "I'll create my own adventures and personalities, give me more design sequences," etc. The primary loyalties in Trav were to radically different approaches to play, including a significant focus on solitaire. Perhaps the most common remark from a Traveller fan is, "Oh, I never played that, I just bought it for the XXX."

While any given player could choose to play BT or Trav with his(/her) buddies tonight, when they wanted to play Traveller they wanted something quite different than what BT provided, and what Traveller provided was quite a bit more complex, and more difficult to manage as well.

(As an aside, I expect this is related to BT's ongoing success. If you are going to make a computer game or animated series or get a movie deal, it is probably better to have a simple cinematic soundbite for the studio executive, like, "it's about giant rock-em-sock-em robots with lasers" (and I don't mean that unkindly, but that's about where the game's visceral appeal coalesced) rather than, "Traveller is kind of about everything, it depends on your campaign because you can do about anything you want. IMTU..." Joss Whedon can get away with not admitting that Firefly is Traveller in a way he could not if it were about giant rock-em-sock-em robots with lasers.)

There is something inherent in Traveller (or in the people that play it and who produce it) that wants to be all things to all people. You could say it's stupid to allow yourself to sign up for that, or to "allow" your base to keep wanting that, but it's the way Traveller is. T5 is a perfect example of that Traveller personality, and working on Traveller is riding the tiger.

We were always talking to distributors and retailers (Frank was the president of GAMA during those years) and hearing, "simplify the game." The meme repeated to me most often was, "new players are intimidated by thinking they have to memorize the list of emperors, ditch the background." We had existing players, (associated in my mind with Challenge subscribers who wrote physical letters), who were invested in the Rebellion factions, and wanted to know what happened because GDW had encouraged them to feel that way, but by 1991 that had spun out of control. The loudest and most insistent voices were the self-selecting groups who formed electronic communities on their own, the mailing lists, or were commissioned by GDW, like HIWG. The mailing lists were generally "I don't play in the OTU" guys who designed lots of technology and figured out how it would work and studied C-rocks and crowbars from orbit, and HIWG was obviously very 3I history and Rebellion oriented. Obviously input from the self-selecting populations was skewed, but since there is no way to poll people who don't play your game, opinions of distributors and retailers filled in for that, and that was skewed as well, because they had their own economic interests. The issue is not that we didn't spend lots of time sifting through market input, but that it was all over the map, and we had reasons to want to be responsive to all of them, mostly because we had encouraged most of them to be there. Perhaps it is a credit to our being "nice guys" that we tried, or perhaps it is a credit to our being stupid that we tried. Certainly someone will point out that there is an MBA science to market research which points the way to the money (and then someone would object, "that is corrupt, you just treat us as cash cows"). While a Harvard MBA could have said, "listen to this segment because they have money, ignore them because they don't really help you," that's really what WOTC brought to the table a little later. For example, the endless argument of,

Distributor: "You get new players by putting out a new game with lower barriers to entry and simple, clear examples of what they are to emulate. Don't focus on your existing constituencies."

Existing Players (TML, HIWG, et al.): "NO! You get new players by existing players and GMs bringing them in, and explaining the rich and detailed legacy and heritage. Focus on us, because we are your word of mouth."

Who is actually correct? Where is the validated, normed, statistical evidence that one is right and the other wrong? I can tell you that in 1991-92 no one could tell me the answer, it was a lot of opinions and gut feels, and GDW couldn't commission RAND or Harris to find out. In the early '90s gaming was still at the end of its cottage industry beginnings and not yet transitioned to being divisions of Hasbro and Topps. Maybe Hasbro and Topps know the answer to that, or maybe the real answer is "TV advertising," I don't know. (Did FASA know the answer, or had they simply built a simpler baseline to produce on? Ask Jordan or Ross.)

Anyhoo, to misquote Jesus, "You cannot serve both the distributors and the retailers and the TML and XBoat and HIWG and the people who haven't bought your game yet because they're scared of it, especially now that the MBAs over at WOTC have just cracked the code on combining the twin obsessions of power gaming and game/card collecting."

But, people who play Traveller, even though they may also play BattleTech, don't play Traveller because it scratches the same itch that BT already does. I would agree that BattleTech was designed (or copped from anime) more shrewdly than Traveller to create a more predictable, stable fan base that can support a rationalized product line over time, but that ship had already left the pier by 1991. Traveller wants to be all things to all people (and seriously, bless its heart for trying) as T5 shows, and that's not easy, as the eight or ten editions of the game over the years demonstrate. However, the alternative is to throw the Traveller audience over the side and say, "can't be done, not worth it," and no one wants that.

Mmm, donuts.
 
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